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Thread: The Growing Divide between Dubas and Babcock

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    Default The Growing Divide between Dubas and Babcock

    Can we go on another four years with the high-dollar coach and GM appearing to be on opposite sides of a growing chasm?

    I think we all wondered, to varying degrees, how this would work when Dubas and not one of the older school guys was named GM. And again when Dubas had to literally take Mike's toys away by not even giving Polak or Komarov a backward glance.

    It's starting to get really blatant and embarassing now following the Muzzin acquisition and the big contract signings the team has made.

    we could joke about the heavy and gudpro stuff, but we're getting to the point now that the coach is telling us, through his distribution of ice time and postgame comments, that he doesn't like at the very least the defence corps if not a good part of the squad. they aren't the type of hockey players he prefers. they aren't playing the type of hockey he prefers. They're never going to be long heavy gudpros. And he's going to play the **** out of the type of hockey player he prefers, seemingly no matter the result.

    At some point something has to give here. The team has now invested huge dollars in Nylander and Matthews. Dubas clearly saw Muzzin as a guy they could get for a good cost that would help address the team's biggest issue on defence -- overplaying Hainsey and Zaitsev -- as well as give them some insurance against overpaying Gardiner to stay. What do we have instead? Matthews and Nylander continue to get low minutes despite being signed to big deals by Dubas, and Babcock is playing the team's big defence acquisition...behind Hainsey and Zaitsev.

    I think one reason a lot of this is being kept at a slow boil is because, well, we're still a good regular season team. we haven't gotten to the real test yet.

    But it is simply impossible to believe that contradictions which are starting to become really glaring are going unnoticed.

    I guess this is going to become a fire Babcock thread, but given the contract situation I think it would take disaster for them to pull the trigger now.

    Is there a way for Dubas to manage this? Is there a player or two that he could strategically trade for/away, that would basically maneuver Babcock into playing a more sensible lineup?

    For example, if we acquired a left winger that could score...would that push Hyman out of a top 6 role, or would Babs simply go Muzzin/Dermott on that kind of upgrade and instead take minutes away from Johnsson?
    "...And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain."

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    Default Re: The Growing Divide between Dubas and Babcock

    I think Dubas should seriously consider giving Babcock a couple cheap toys at the deadline ( Kruger and McQuaid come to mind) so that if they lose he has the ammunition to maybe get rid of him, as he'd have failed with his types.

    No matter what Dubas guys he gives Babcock, Babs seemingly does what he wants regardless. So what's the point?

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    resurrected BeLeafer's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Growing Divide between Dubas and Babcock

    There's two choices for Dubas right now:

    1. Take his toys away -- trade Zaits, Hainsey, Hyman, and Lindholm (if he's worth anything).

    2. Fire his arse.

    I'd pick the latter as Hainsey and Hyman are useful players if deployed properly. I'd pick the former as well to tell Babcock to stuff it.
    #freesheldon

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    Default Re: The Growing Divide between Dubas and Babcock

    Babcock seems determined to be a bully on this one, and double down instead of listening and trying to compromise.

    So it'll unfortunately force the rookie GM into a situation where he either has to accept that his roster will not in any way be utilized the way he thinks it should, or he has to stick his neck out and fire an expensive hall of fame coach right off the bat.
    #FireBabcock

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    Default Re: The Growing Divide between Dubas and Babcock

    Quote Originally Posted by BeLeafer View Post
    There's two choices for Dubas right now:

    1. Take his toys away -- trade Zaits, Hainsey, Hyman, and Lindholm (if he's worth anything).

    2. Fire his arse.

    I'd pick the latter as Hainsey and Hyman are useful players if deployed properly. I'd pick the former as well to tell Babcock to stuff it.
    2 is not a choice at the moment, but he can make moves where it becomes a much easier one after a playoff loss.

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    Default Re: The Growing Divide between Dubas and Babcock

    Quote Originally Posted by BeLeafer View Post
    There's two choices for Dubas right now:

    1. Take his toys away -- trade Zaits, Hainsey, Hyman, and Lindholm (if he's worth anything).

    2. Fire his arse.

    I'd pick the latter as Hainsey and Hyman are useful players if deployed properly. I'd pick the former as well to tell Babcock to stuff it.
    2 is not a choice at the moment, but he can make moves where it becomes a much easier one after a playoff loss.

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    Default Re: The Growing Divide between Dubas and Babcock

    Dubas making bad trades to hurt the team give ammunition to lose his own job, not anyone else's.

    From all reports Dubas' balls outweigh zeke's. If he wanted Babs gone, he'd be gone.

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    Default Re: The Growing Divide between Dubas and Babcock

    I think Dubas is smart enough to know that he's gradually going to get to the roster he wants, and Babs will have no choice but to deploy them properly. Hainsey is gone at the end of the year without Dubas lifting a finger, so he doesn't need to explain why the Leafs weren't the team to give Ron another two years when Lilly and Sandin are knocking. Same reasoning for dumping Zaitsev if he gets a chance, plus with the added rationale of needing the money to give to Kapanen and Johnsson, who we know Babs likes. Marleau just needs to be tolerated for one more year, and still isn't killing us or anything. And I doubt Dubas has a problem with Hyman, to be honest.

    All of that said, I think Dubas could and should give Babs a new toy that Dubas himself would like too - a big, tough, scoring winger who would have to play in the top six and who would necessarily bump Marleau and Hyman down. I do think as a team we need that anyway, as we're too soft and have a tough time when teams start manhandling us. So it's a win-win if Dubas can identify the right acquisition. Shit, maybe kill two birds with one stone by trading Zaitsev plus for him.

    But I don't subscribe to the doom and gloom of all this. We're still really good and are contenders. The only real problems I see are the PP and why we don't seem to play well against the cellar dwellers. I'm more or less a happy Leafs camper these days. I have faith in both Dubas and Babcock, and their ability to stick together and deliver a Cup or two.

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    Default Re: The Growing Divide between Dubas and Babcock

    For example, if we acquired a left winger that could score...would that push Hyman out of a top 6 role, or would Babs simply go Muzzin/Dermott on that kind of upgrade and instead take minutes away from Johnsson?
    I think the evidence speaks for itself. We have a LW who can score and he didn't push Marleau or Hyman down the lineup. We have very skilled young 2 way defender who plays mean in the corners and clever with the puck, and has shown flexibility in being able to play on the left or right effectively and he plays behind absolutely everyone.

    Babcock isn't playing Marleau, Hyman, Hainsey, and Zaitsev like he is to spite anyone. He plays them because he values them and thinks that they're a big reason we win hockey games. There's no 8D underwater backgammon going on. He plays who he thinks helps us win.
    The amount of energy necessary to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude larger than is required to produce it.

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    Default Re: The Growing Divide between Dubas and Babcock

    Quote Originally Posted by MindzEye View Post
    I think the evidence speaks for itself. We have a LW who can score and he didn't push Marleau or Hyman down the lineup. We have very skilled young 2 way defender who plays mean in the corners and clever with the puck, and has shown flexibility in being able to play on the left or right effectively and he plays behind absolutely everyone.

    Babcock isn't playing Marleau, Hyman, Hainsey, and Zaitsev like he is to spite anyone. He plays them because he values them and thinks that they're a big reason we win hockey games. There's no 8D underwater backgammon going on. He plays who he thinks helps us win.
    may i steal 8D underwater backgammon?

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    Default Re: The Growing Divide between Dubas and Babcock

    Some thief you are, asking permission.

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    Default Re: The Growing Divide between Dubas and Babcock

    Quote Originally Posted by leafman101 View Post
    Dubas making bad trades to hurt the team give ammunition to lose his own job, not anyone else's.

    From all reports Dubas' balls outweigh zeke's. If he wanted Babs gone, he'd be gone.
    So Dubas is ok with making major trades and signings and watching/hearing his coach passive-aggressively shit on them?
    "...And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain."

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    Default Re: The Growing Divide between Dubas and Babcock

    Quote Originally Posted by MindzEye View Post
    I think the evidence speaks for itself. We have a LW who can score and he didn't push Marleau or Hyman down the lineup. We have very skilled young 2 way defender who plays mean in the corners and clever with the puck, and has shown flexibility in being able to play on the left or right effectively and he plays behind absolutely everyone.

    Babcock isn't playing Marleau, Hyman, Hainsey, and Zaitsev like he is to spite anyone. He plays them because he values them and thinks that they're a big reason we win hockey games. There's no 8D underwater backgammon going on. He plays who he thinks helps us win.
    I hear you, but I was thinking more of a veteran guy, not an inexperienced player like Johnsson who is ostensibly earning his way up. someone who would expect bigger minutes.

    like Muzzin, for instance...sigh.
    "...And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain."

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    Default Re: The Growing Divide between Dubas and Babcock

    Quote Originally Posted by MyNameIsJonas View Post
    may i steal 8D underwater backgammon?
    Sure, but it's an easy enough formula that I've just borrowed from the online communities dedicated to making fun of MAGAts

    Take ridiculous amount of dimensions..let's call this one 12, and add a ridiculous game, let's say Go Fish.

    Babcock isn't playing 12D underwater Go Fish out there.

    It's a riff on Trump fans claiming that none of his stupidity was at it seemed, it was all Trump playing 3D chess against his opposition.
    The amount of energy necessary to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude larger than is required to produce it.

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    Default Re: The Growing Divide between Dubas and Babcock

    Quote Originally Posted by Volcanologist View Post
    I hear you, but I was thinking more of a veteran guy, not an inexperienced player like Johnsson who is ostensibly earning his way up. someone who would expect bigger minutes.

    like Muzzin, for instance...sigh.
    Yeah..like Muzzin.

    Best part of this (if by best, you realize that I mean worst) is that Muzzin-Rielly were great until 1 period against Colorado. In that period they were about a 30% SCF pairing (which is really horrible), this required immediate action from Babcock. Ron and Morgan have been a 37% SCF pairing (remember, Babcock claims to only care about chances, not shots) since it was put back together. This apparently requires no action.

    Dubas went out and got Babcock a bonifide top pairing defender who hits big, shoots big, and plays fairly mean and Babcock is playing him like a #5. Stanley Cup ****ing champion top pairing defender. It's a shame he's not right handed like Ron Hainsey is.
    The amount of energy necessary to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude larger than is required to produce it.

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    Default Re: The Growing Divide between Dubas and Babcock

    Gotta think Shanahan would step in as a facilitator if there was any actual conflict going on behind the scenes.
    BG

    "Holy snapping eyeballs!"

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    Default Re: The Growing Divide between Dubas and Babcock

    Quote Originally Posted by Volcanologist View Post
    So Dubas is ok with making major trades and signings and watching/hearing his coach passive-aggressively shit on them?
    I am not sure where you get that from my post, but I doubt Dubas cares what Babs says to the media. They communicate on a daily basis, and I am sure agree/disagree on a lot, face to face. They have 100%, without question, discussed Muzzin's fit and usage. Likely a lot. And will continue to.

    All I said, was I don't see Dubas as someone who would be afraid to fire Babs if he wanted to fire Babs.

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    Default Re: The Growing Divide between Dubas and Babcock

    okay, so you think Dubas is cool with it.

    I can't see how he could be.
    "...And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain."

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    Default Re: The Growing Divide between Dubas and Babcock

    Quote Originally Posted by BG View Post
    Gotta think Shanahan would step in as a facilitator if there was any actual conflict going on behind the scenes.
    Oh no doubt. I don't think there's conflict per se, just a significant difference in philosophy. But Babcock negotiated a fair bit of influence into team decisions into his contract if reports at the time are true and I don't think a change in GM would alter his expectations regarding that. Dubas knew this when he took the job. Dubas gets to put who he wants on the roster (thus, Holl) and Babcock gets to play who he wants from that roster (thus, Leivo & Holl). I'm sure they have conversations about their views on the matter but and I don't doubt that they know how the other feels. I do though start to think that the relationship will begin getting acrimonious if the leafs bow out of the 1st round this season. Already we see the complications that having JT on the cap structure is causing, and that move was made to accelerate the chances of winning.
    The amount of energy necessary to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude larger than is required to produce it.

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    Default Re: The Growing Divide between Dubas and Babcock

    Don't forget, Dubas was here already when Babs was hired, before Lou came. At the very least, dubas was ok with the hiring of Mike.

    And he may disagree about player usage, but ultimately coaches are responsible for W's and L's. If Babs can bring the cup to TO, then who cares if he makes Rielly a #6 dman and Hainsey #1?

    Babs has been here 3.5 seasons now. First season nobody expected anything of him, and he developed a system for a basement team.

    Second year was a successful season, and team made playoff when many expected them to miss it. Losing in 6 vs. the Caps didn't make Babs look bad.

    Last season, team established ourselves as a top team in regular season, and losing in first round again (in 7, nevertheless) probably raised some eyebrows about Babs as a coach. Still, many would blame Matthews' and Freddie's playoff performance for the loss to the Bruins before coaching, and I don't think they are wrong. Overall as a season and playoff, I don't think people were too disappointed about the outcome.

    This year, it's generally expected the Leafs would be a top 5 reg season team (which the team can still achieve) and win at least a round. If we go down in say, Eastern finals, then I don't think anyone would have serious qualms about the progress of the team. OTOH if we lose in round 1 AGAIN, then I wouldn't rule out firing of Babs.

    Dubas has much more support in the Leafs' board room than most people believe imo, and if he really believes Babs is the problem, Babs will be gone. I just don't believe firing Babs right now would be justified.

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