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Thread: The Retool: Stage 2

  1. #41
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    Default Re: The Retool: Stage 2

    GGpX what would you do with Gallagher ?

    2 years left on a gold contract and will be 29 when his contract is up

  2. #42
    Legend GGpX's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Retool: Stage 2

    Oh, that's easy. Trade him and get a boatload back. There's no chance this regressive management team would ever consider it, though.

    He's going to ask for a 6 to 8 year deal at $7.5M / year and sure, he'll probably be worth it in year 1 and 2. But by year 3, watch out. Buyer beware...

    Gallagher's style of play mixed with his size will see him (for lack of a better metaphor) turn to rot overnight. And if he doesn't, he'll be an outlyer; One of the very, very rare cases.

    This isn't exclusively for Gallagher, btw. I would trade all non top-6 centers (unless I have a Kotkaniemi-esque prospect in the pipeline) or HHOF caliber talents two years before the end of their second contract. ELC 20 to 23, 5-6 year deal up to 28-29, trade them at 27 or 28. D-men can wait a little bit longer as point totals are not always as important for them.
    I probably work too much for my own good.

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    Legend lecoqsportif's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Retool: Stage 2

    Hate to agree with that, but I do.

    Gallagher looks like the kind of player whose game could deteriorate quickly. And it’s amazing he avoided major injuries over the last couple of years, but it feels like he’s riding his luck given the way he plays.

  4. #44
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    Default Re: The Retool: Stage 2

    Quote Originally Posted by GGpX View Post
    Oh, that's easy. Trade him and get a boatload back. There's no chance this regressive management team would ever consider it, though.

    He's going to ask for a 6 to 8 year deal at $7.5M / year and sure, he'll probably be worth it in year 1 and 2. But by year 3, watch out. Buyer beware...

    Gallagher's style of play mixed with his size will see him (for lack of a better metaphor) turn to rot overnight. And if he doesn't, he'll be an outlyer; One of the very, very rare cases.

    This isn't exclusively for Gallagher, btw. I would trade all non top-6 centers (unless I have a Kotkaniemi-esque prospect in the pipeline) or HHOF caliber talents two years before the end of their second contract. ELC 20 to 23, 5-6 year deal up to 28-29, trade them at 27 or 28. D-men can wait a little bit longer as point totals are not always as important for them.
    You would make a good GM ....ruthless

    Capitalizing on trade opportunities to keep adding assets and getting max value.

  5. #45
    Wrong Thinker Extraordinaire Habsy's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Retool: Stage 2

    Quote Originally Posted by GGpX View Post
    Oh, that's easy. Trade him and get a boatload back. There's no chance this regressive management team would ever consider it, though.

    He's going to ask for a 6 to 8 year deal at $7.5M / year and sure, he'll probably be worth it in year 1 and 2. But by year 3, watch out. Buyer beware...

    Gallagher's style of play mixed with his size will see him (for lack of a better metaphor) turn to rot overnight. And if he doesn't, he'll be an outlyer; One of the very, very rare cases.

    This isn't exclusively for Gallagher, btw. I would trade all non top-6 centers (unless I have a Kotkaniemi-esque prospect in the pipeline) or HHOF caliber talents two years before the end of their second contract. ELC 20 to 23, 5-6 year deal up to 28-29, trade them at 27 or 28. D-men can wait a little bit longer as point totals are not always as important for them.
    I agree it'll never happen but I would also do the same. Don't get me wrong, Gallagher is my favorite forward on the team and I love watching him play but he is coming off back-to-back 30+ goal seasons and is a coach's wet dream. MB should be able to get more for him than he did for Pacioretty. If he can somehow get a first, second, top 6 younger forward and a top prospect for Gallagher? I think he needs to do it. I would greatly prefer him being moved out west though, he seems like the type of guy that would make us pay every time he played the Habs.
    #FireJulien#FireMarcBergevin Burn Geoff Molson in effigy! #worstmanagementstaffever

  6. #46
    LeAdminie legoalie's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Retool: Stage 2

    Quote Originally Posted by lecoqsportif View Post
    Hate to agree with that, but I do.

    Gallagher looks like the kind of player whose game could deteriorate quickly. And it’s amazing he avoided major injuries over the last couple of years, but it feels like he’s riding his luck given the way he plays.
    Broken hand is not major? The guy is a fitness demon, he worked all summer on his shot and wrists/hand in the off season to make it stronger than it was, his shot is harder and the release is faster, that is why he scoring more goals from farther away than in his previous years.. Gallagher will always be a fitness demon and for that reason alone i think he has a long NHL career

  7. #47
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    Default Re: The Retool: Stage 2

    I guess I am a little less ruthless. While it may make sense from a rational perspective, some guys you just have to try and hang on to. Gallagher is one. He's the kind of player teams spend years trying to find, a heart and soul leader who can score. We were years trying to find one of those. Even when his play drops off, there will be benefits. Not sure you can trade everyone, hoping someone in the return package turns into a Gallagher. Even in a business,cap-driven world.

  8. #48
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    Default Re: The Retool: Stage 2

    My opinions on management are simple and straightforward: What do the best teams in North American sports do?

    The NBA is basically impossible to manage a team properly. You have to be in a big market and get a hall of fame player or you're almost guaranteed that you're never going to win. Despite that, San Antonio is the model. Milwaukee is an outlier this year in a way because they have a hall of fame player. Oklahoma came close once upon a time when they had three hall of fame talents (and somehow lost two of them for close to nothing, lol). What do they have in common? They draft their hall of fame talent, make some shrewd trades (remember when San Antonio traded George Hill for Kawhi Leonard?), sign underrated players and are able to find talent via the draft.

    MLB is mostly about who has the most money. It's not a surprise that LA, Bawstun, New Yawk are always in contention or close to it while teams Houston need to do a multi-year tank job to accumulate elite talent through the draft. But despite the financial aspect, Bawstun, LA and New Yawk always seem to have prospects in the pipeline available to be traded for players who need new, rich contracts. They draft well.

    NFL is the New England model. Everything starts and ends with Tom Brady and Bill Belicheck. I begrudgingly despise them, but it's mostly because people in Montréal are gutless bandwagon jumping schmucks when it comes to football and I used to be surrounded by New England "fans" who used to 49ers, who used to be Cowboys fans, who used to be Steelers fans, and so on. But look at what New England does. They get young, maleable, hungry players and they squeeze that lemon dry. While New England doesn't make many trades, simply because the NFL landscape doesn't make it possible, they still make some great trades. Remember getting Randy Moss for crumbs? Last year, they traded a third round pick for Trent Brown who became their starting left tackle to replace Nate Solder, who became the NFL's highest paid O-Lineman. One year later, they won a Super Bowl with Trent Brown as their starting Left Tackle and guess what, now he's the highest paid O-Lineman in the NFL and they'll be getting a compensatory third round pick in the 2020 draft for losing him in free agency. Asset management 101. They almost never pay market value for players. Of those that they do pay, Tom Brady is well under market value, Gronkowski was the most talented Tight End ever and Stephon Gillmore is on a trajectory to head to the hall of fame.

    The NHL is, imo, one of the easier leagues to maintain. It's very, very straight-forward and half of the league is managed by people who have no business being managers. No offense to The Charlatan and people of his ilk, but he has no qualifications to be the manager of business worth over half a billion dollars. My model franchise used to be the San Jose Sharks for the last decade, but Jesus have they given out bad contracts. The Tampa Bay Lightning is now the Tampa Bay Lightning. The way they've built that organization from top to bottom is magnificent. They've made virtually no mistakes, outside of trading for Callahan and giving that idiotic bridge deal to Kucherov and the contracts they've given out are all solid. They probably have the best amateur scouting staff in the league, they have a good amount of talented prospects in the pipeline, they're going to be great for a long, long time.

    By the way... $6.457M. That's how much the caphits for Kucherov, Point & Gourde are this season, combining for 255 points. Remember how I keep harping about getting the most out of players when they're woefully underpaid?
    I probably work too much for my own good.

  9. #49
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    Default Re: The Retool: Stage 2

    It's not all about what he does on the ice, what does he bring inside the dressing room, with a youth movement happening, having a leader such as Gally is irreplaceable. The youth see and learn how to play the game with energy, every shift and every game. Somethings are not taught by the coach, you learn from witnessing, day after day, what the game demands if you want to be effective. You cannot trade him, the room would be looking for that kind of leadership for years to come.....imo

  10. #50
    The Artist Formerly Known as chiggins. CH1's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Retool: Stage 2

    There's very few Bill Belichicks. People can say they want to be unemotional optimizers, but most GMs (and people in general) will fail because they lack discipline and commitment to being ultra rational even when it will displease the media/fans/ownership

    Safe to say, Bergevin has not shown any Belichick type qualities.

    Belichick has also benefitted from Tom Brady agreeing to play below market value for all these years. I'm sure Kraft will reward Brady after he retires.
    Some GMs get you to the playoffs and some GMs get you through the playoffs.

  11. #51
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    Default Re: The Retool: Stage 2

    People in general also suffer from 'loss aversion' bias. They generally have a hard time giving up assets and fail to consider opportunity costs.
    Some GMs get you to the playoffs and some GMs get you through the playoffs.

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    Default The Retool: Stage 2

    When Paul Fenton was hired last summer, Wild owner said publicly “the new GMs mandate is tweak for a playoff run, rebuild will not be considered”.

    Ownership decision post Xmas allowed Fenton to deal 2-core pieces but only if NHL insert able talent was coming back, to keep trying for a playoff push, hence Niederreiter to Rask and Coyle for Donato (a great deal for Minny IMO).

    McGuire has said many instances on radio, during his interview process for Habs GM, it was said repeatedly “rebuild is an unacceptable approach for ownership”.

    This idiotic talk of rebuilds & purge are nice in fantasy hockey land, but ownership...the people actually responsible for spending their $ can’t afford to piss off advertisers including TV rights for the “goodness of building a winner”


    “We haven’t reached the ultimate, of where you walk into the building and you can sort of smell victory. But we’re a step closer to that this year than we were last year.”


    “So now the pressure’s on to replicate.”
    - Geoff Molson

  13. #53
    The Artist Formerly Known as chiggins. CH1's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Retool: Stage 2

    you don't have to do a classic rebuild in order to retool/optimize and avoid long term contracts that hobble you for the last 3 years.

    anyway, Bergevin is not that guy. He didn't think twice about backing up the Brink's truck for Carey Price.
    Some GMs get you to the playoffs and some GMs get you through the playoffs.

  14. #54
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    Default Re: The Retool: Stage 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Elliotlaker View Post
    It's not all about what he does on the ice, what does he bring inside the dressing room, with a youth movement happening, having a leader such as Gally is irreplaceable. The youth see and learn how to play the game with energy, every shift and every game. Somethings are not taught by the coach, you learn from witnessing, day after day, what the game demands if you want to be effective. You cannot trade him, the room would be looking for that kind of leadership for years to come.....imo
    Isn't that what The Greatest Leader Since Mark Messier was traded for, to bring leadership?
    Last edited by GGpX; 03-30-2019 at 02:50 PM.
    I probably work too much for my own good.

  15. #55
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    Default Re: The Retool: Stage 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Sal_Butera View Post
    When Paul Fenton was hired last summer, Wild owner said publicly “the new GMs mandate is tweak for a playoff run, rebuild will not be considered”.

    Ownership decision post Xmas allowed Fenton to deal 2-core pieces but only if NHL insert able talent was coming back, to keep trying for a playoff push, hence Niederreiter to Rask and Coyle for Donato (a great deal for Minny IMO).

    McGuire has said many instances on radio, during his interview process for Habs GM, it was said repeatedly “rebuild is an unacceptable approach for ownership”.

    This idiotic talk of rebuilds & purge are nice in fantasy hockey land, but ownership...the people actually responsible for spending their $ can’t afford to piss off advertisers including TV rights for the “goodness of building a winner
    Yeah, that poor Houston Astros ownership group who now have a great contending team for the next decade where they make tons of new revenue from attendance and merchandise sales after suffering for a few years. That poor, poor Pittsburgh Penguins ownership group that has seen the profits and franchise value skyrocket ever since they got Crosby and Malkin. Same for Washington, but meh, narrative.

    NHL owners in major markets are not going to make as money as they would hope in the short run, but if done properly (and not through nepotism where failure gets you promotions like in Deadmonton) they will see their revenues jump leaps and bounds.

    But hey, if all you're worried about is making a quick buck, then good for you I guess.
    I probably work too much for my own good.

  16. #56
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    Default The Retool: Stage 2

    Quote Originally Posted by CH1 View Post
    you don't have to do a classic rebuild in order to retool/optimize and avoid long term contracts that hobble you for the last 3 years.

    anyway, Bergevin is not that guy. He didn't think twice about backing up the Brink's truck for Carey Price.
    Serge Savard when interviewed about characteristics being looked for prior to selecting MB said the usual scouting, being respected by people in the business yards yada yada...but what got my attention was the Habs age old - “competence of building from goalie out, goaltending being most important position”

    I was hopeful MB coming in from the Hawks org would purge the old Habs DNA of “200-ft game, build goalie out philosophy” sometimes there are ingrained hurdles : influences almost impossible to overcome...


    “We haven’t reached the ultimate, of where you walk into the building and you can sort of smell victory. But we’re a step closer to that this year than we were last year.”


    “So now the pressure’s on to replicate.”
    - Geoff Molson

  17. #57
    The Artist Formerly Known as chiggins. CH1's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Retool: Stage 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Sal_Butera View Post
    Serge Savard when interviewed about characteristics being looked for prior to selecting MB said the usual scouting, being respected by people in the business...but what got my attention was the Habs age old - “competence of building from goalie out, goaltending being most important position”

    I was hopeful MB coming in from the Hawks org would purge the old Habs DNA of “200-ft game, build goalie out philosophy” sometimes there are ingrained hurdles : influences almost impossible to overcome...
    The mistake is equating a goalie's importance to that of an NFL QB.

    Even if that's true, a competent goalie is much easier to find.
    Some GMs get you to the playoffs and some GMs get you through the playoffs.

  18. #58
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    Default Re: The Retool: Stage 2

    Quote Originally Posted by GGpX View Post
    My opinions on management are simple and straightforward: What do the best teams in North American sports do?

    The NBA is basically impossible to manage a team properly. You have to be in a big market and get a hall of fame player or you're almost guaranteed that you're never going to win. Despite that, San Antonio is the model. Milwaukee is an outlier this year in a way because they have a hall of fame player. Oklahoma came close once upon a time when they had three hall of fame talents (and somehow lost two of them for close to nothing, lol). What do they have in common? They draft their hall of fame talent, make some shrewd trades (remember when San Antonio traded George Hill for Kawhi Leonard?), sign underrated players and are able to find talent via the draft.

    MLB is mostly about who has the most money. It's not a surprise that LA, Bawstun, New Yawk are always in contention or close to it while teams Houston need to do a multi-year tank job to accumulate elite talent through the draft. But despite the financial aspect, Bawstun, LA and New Yawk always seem to have prospects in the pipeline available to be traded for players who need new, rich contracts. They draft well.

    NFL is the New England model. Everything starts and ends with Tom Brady and Bill Belicheck. I begrudgingly despise them, but it's mostly because people in Montréal are gutless bandwagon jumping schmucks when it comes to football and I used to be surrounded by New England "fans" who used to 49ers, who used to be Cowboys fans, who used to be Steelers fans, and so on. But look at what New England does. They get young, maleable, hungry players and they squeeze that lemon dry. While New England doesn't make many trades, simply because the NFL landscape doesn't make it possible, they still make some great trades. Remember getting Randy Moss for crumbs? Last year, they traded a third round pick for Trent Brown who became their starting left tackle to replace Nate Solder, who became the NFL's highest paid O-Lineman. One year later, they won a Super Bowl with Trent Brown as their starting Left Tackle and guess what, now he's the highest paid O-Lineman in the NFL and they'll be getting a compensatory third round pick in the 2020 draft for losing him in free agency. Asset management 101. They almost never pay market value for players. Of those that they do pay, Tom Brady is well under market value, Gronkowski was the most talented Tight End ever and Stephon Gillmore is on a trajectory to head to the hall of fame.

    The NHL is, imo, one of the easier leagues to maintain. It's very, very straight-forward and half of the league is managed by people who have no business being managers. No offense to The Charlatan and people of his ilk, but he has no qualifications to be the manager of business worth over half a billion dollars. My model franchise used to be the San Jose Sharks for the last decade, but Jesus have they given out bad contracts. The Tampa Bay Lightning is now the Tampa Bay Lightning. The way they've built that organization from top to bottom is magnificent. They've made virtually no mistakes, outside of trading for Callahan and giving that idiotic bridge deal to Kucherov and the contracts they've given out are all solid. They probably have the best amateur scouting staff in the league, they have a good amount of talented prospects in the pipeline, they're going to be great for a long, long time.

    By the way... $6.457M. That's how much the caphits for Kucherov, Point & Gourde are this season, combining for 255 points. Remember how I keep harping about getting the most out of players when they're woefully underpaid?
    Great post but I will disagree that hockey is the easiest league to maintain .

    Its the hardest to manage of the big 4 sports IMO .

    It takes years for a contending core to maybe develop .

    A restrictive hard cap makes trading and unloading contracts problematic with trade clauses in place .

  19. #59
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    Default Re: The Retool: Stage 2

    Quote Originally Posted by CH1 View Post
    you don't have to do a classic rebuild in order to retool/optimize and avoid long term contracts that hobble you for the last 3 years.

    anyway, Bergevin is not that guy. He didn't think twice about backing up the Brink's truck for Carey Price.
    Exactly , retooling on the fly with solid moves like the 67 trade can help you today and restock the pipeline .

    Being proactive and rational and as GGpX says trading before your expiry date avoids the mess to fix later .

    If we did that with Souray, Komi, Pleks and Markov we might be in better shape right now .

    Its been one scramble /retool job every few years when nothing works .

  20. #60
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    Default Re: The Retool: Stage 2

    Quote Originally Posted by CH1 View Post
    The mistake is equating a goalie's importance to that of an NFL QB.

    Even if that's true, a competent goalie is much easier to find.
    The Carolina Hurricanes concur with that assessment.

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