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Game 81 - Montreal Canadiens @ Washington Capitals - THU APR 4TH 7:00 EST

Sal_Butera said:
Hmmm Kuznetsov & Kucherov we’re both available for Habs to draft neither a top-3 pick...

Again it’s due to lack of foresight / vision, where he game is headed - Tinordi was a knee jerk reaction just like McCarron was.
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Ovy wasn't available or was he ....hmmmm

The point is simple Sal .... you need multiple components to build a team and some luck .

I am looking at the now not what could of been , that's the issue .

Yes you could nail a Kucherov but it takes 3-5 years for development .

You could nail undrafted Johnsons and Gourde`s but it only works with a Stammer and Hedman at the top of the drafts .

Kucherov , Carlson , Holtby , Kuznetov`s are studs but it only works with other drafted and developed components maturing along the way .

The only thing we have nailed is finding junk on the scrap heap like Weise , Dano and Byron and gloating how we turned chicken shit into chicken salad.

What do these teams have in common Sal ...... developed cores of 5-7 players that take time to mature

That's our issue Sal ...... 7 years later and we are still swimming in mud trying to hit the shore of prosperity .

Its nice to talk but we need to start somewhere ...flipping half your roster every 3 -4 years and still stink with few pieces to work with will never work in this league .
 
You’re missing my point G-man, the Habs org now seems to actually have a philosophy or vision based on tenants that aligns with the league trend - speed, tenacity, hockey IQ & skill. That’s better than what we’ve witnessed the last 39-years, when they were in their own stratosphere relative to how the leagues contenders were trending.

That’s why this off season will be the true test - can MB build on the foundation of his tenants and apply it to all of drafting, development (AHL & Habs), trades, UFA signings (should that happen) etc

BTW - who is the Bruins’ top-3 drafted elite talent? McAvoy, Pasternak & DeBrusk weren’t - Habs can be built in a similar manner 4-lines of contributing capability, they need to get bigger while not sacrificing skill up front, and better in all facets at D.
 
Sal_Butera said:
You’re missing my point G-man, the Habs org now seems to actually have a philosophy or vision based on tenants that aligns with the league trend - speed, tenacity, hockey IQ & skill. That’s better than what we’ve witnessed the last 39-years, when they were in their own stratosphere relative to how the leagues contenders were trending.

That’s why this off season will be the true test - can MB build on the foundation of his tenants and apply it to all of drafting, development (AHL & Habs), trades, UFA signings (should that happen) etc

BTW - who is the Bruins’ top-3 drafted elite talent? McAvoy, Pasternak & DeBrusk weren’t - Habs can be built in a similar manner 4-lines of contributing capability, they need to get bigger while not sacrificing skill up front, and better in all facets at D.
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I’m betting that MB won’t/can’t.
 
Sal_Butera said:
Yet he didn’t deal any picks or prospects for a quick fix at the deadline did he? Maybe he knew this is step 1 of a multi-step retool process ...or maybe not
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Knowing what needs to be doesn’t mean you have the abilities to get it done.
 
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Sal_Butera said:
You’re missing my point G-man, the Habs org now seems to actually have a philosophy or vision based on tenants that aligns with the league trend - speed, tenacity, hockey IQ & skill. That’s better than what we’ve witnessed the last 39-years, when they were in their own stratosphere relative to how the leagues contenders were trending.

That’s why this off season will be the true test - can MB build on the foundation of his tenants and apply it to all of drafting, development (AHL & Habs), trades, UFA signings (should that happen) etc

BTW - who is the Bruins’ top-3 drafted elite talent? McAvoy, Pasternak & DeBrusk weren’t - Habs can be built in a similar manner 4-lines of contributing capability, they need to get bigger while not sacrificing skill up front, and better in all facets at D.
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Yes it can be done Sal

But its going to take another 3-4 years .

Look at the Bruins as your example .... those 3 young studs are developing but Marchand , Bergeron , Krug , Chara were in place

So you have 3 great kids developing with 2 elite forwards in place . They had a base to work with , we don't .

That's the unacceptable issue Sal, we built squat in 7 years .

So now you have some nice prospects that in 2022-2023 are hopefully developed and no substance to work with .

That's my point your missing
 
Kuznetsov fell because people didn't know when/if he was going to come to North America. If he was a Western Canadian, he was a top-10, maybe even top-5 pick. Look at Nikita Gusev, high-end talent and he's still in the KHL at 26, turning 27 this summer. Who knows if he'll ever come over. Idem for Kirill Kaprizov, under contract for another season and even then, there's no guarantee he'll come to North America.

Same thing with Kucherov, people didn't know when/if he'd ever come over. However, with him there were concerns about his size (Modern day NHL has zero concerns, but this was back in 2011 or 2012 when size mattered more), he was playing in a lower league and some worried his game wouldn't translate to the NHL. It's always super easy in hindsight to say "Well, we was available and we passed up on him!". Right, you know who passed up on him? Every single team, including the one who ended up drafting him. I've come to believe that the draft is a lot more based on luck than actual skill. There are some teams who have a real eye for discovering talent, but even then, Tampa Bay took Drouin over Jones/Monahan and they're the best team in the NHL when it comes to this.

Analyzing 18 year olds and trying to figure what they'll be at 23-24 is really, really tough. I've done the exercize a bunch over the years and it's hard. You can't know for sure if people are going to get a drug habit, if they're going to burn out from hockey, if they're going to x, if they're going to y, it's impossible. There's so much guesswork and projecting and assuming... The best thing you can look for is gradual progression from year to year from when they're 15 to 18 (sometimes older), analyze the work habits, is hockey something they're super passionate about, and so on...
 
Sal_Butera said:
Yet he didn’t deal any picks or prospects for a quick fix at the deadline did he? Maybe he knew this is step 1 of a multi-step retool process ...or maybe not
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So lets get this clarified

It took this regime 7 years to have an organizational philosophical clue about building a team and now realize its step 1 of a multi-step retool

I feel so much better now that they didnt start the process 6 years ago when required.
 
GEEMAN said:
So lets get this clarified

It took this regime 7 years to have an organizational philosophical clue about building a team and now realize its step 1 of a multi-step retool

I feel so much better now that they didnt start the process 6 years ago when required.
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No that’s not what I said:

First off, McGuire has repeatedly said during the interview process Jr made it clear a rebuild was an unacceptable option for ownership, a GM works for ownership, does as they’re directed.

Secondly, MB miscalculated where the game was headed and overreacted to the 2013 Sens playoff loss, and focused on pure size to the detriment of skill. That lack of vision (philosophy) has hindered this org since Sam Pollock left the org 39-years ago. That’s been MBs absolute failure, but rebuild was out of his control since ownership wouldn’t go for it. Just as Paul Fenton wanted to start rebuild in Minny last summer when named GM, but owner said under no circumstances was the GM authorized to do so, and even at trade deadline the owner said his GM was given the ok to deal up to two main cogs as long as NHL regular components were coming back in the deal.

BTW - How long did it take for the Caps despite having Ovi and company actually achieve playoff success. Drafted 2004 made finals/won Cup 2018.
 
Sal_Butera said:
No that’s not what I said:

First off, McGuire has repeatedly said during the interview process Jr made it clear a rebuild was an unacceptable option for ownership, a GM works for ownership, does as they’re directed.

Secondly, MB miscalculated where the game was headed and overreacted to the 2013 Sens playoff loss, and focused on pure size to the detriment of skill. That lack of vision (philosophy) has hindered this org since Sam Pollock left the org 39-years ago. That’s been MBs absolute failure, but rebuild was out of his control since ownership wouldn’t go for it. Just as Paul Fenton wanted to start rebuild in Minny last summer when named GM, but owner said under no circumstances was the GM authorized to do so, and even at trade deadline the owner said his GM was given the ok to deal up to two main cogs as long as NHL regular components were coming back in the deal.

BTW - How long did it take for the Caps despite having Ovi and company actually achieve playoff success. Drafted 2004 made finals/won Cup 2018.
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First of all it never had to be a full rebuild even if the clowns owning the team said no.

A properly planned multi year retool starting when dickwad took over 7 years should of yielded some semblance of foundational youth pieces currently in place by now.

He started with 23 year old components of a 1D in PK, an elite 1G , and an inconsistent streaky front line goal scorer in Max who like him or not produced .

He was blessed with the 3rd overall pick .

What we are left with is an aging Weber and Price and 1 player maybe in Domi between 23 and 25 that can be considered an important piece moving forward .

2/3 of this roster has no future with us and will be flushed out in 3-4 years , that’s on your regime/owner.

When your regime has no vision over a that span you get new leaders .

When your hope 7 years later is a bunch of kids who barely shave leading your team one day and playing with a depleted roster of talent , you don’t know WTF your doing .

Our posts right now should be about being 1-2 pieces away from moving from a decent playoff team to the elite top 8 contending status even if we are a secondary contender like Anaheim was for years .

It should be about gloating about 4-6 young foundational players not bitching a bubble team still trying to find its way .

Better drafting and timely moves should not of left us in this state 7 years later and none of this required a full rebuild

As for your Caps your wrong .....

They drafted well and stuck with the plan . They built a core to win . We NEVER DID

They were considered contenders for years .....WE NEVER WERE

They didn’t mish mash or turn over a roster every 4 years finding themselves ....WE DID

They found gems in the lower first round .....WE NEVER DID
 
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