• Moderators, please send me a PM if you are unable to access mod permissions. Thanks, Habsy.

General Leafs News & Notes

mbow30 said:
can't complain about her being up front about her presence here. that's more than you can say about one or two folks who write for the star's sports section....

that said, what is sir psycho sexy? it is an enigma. nobody knows.
Click to expand...

Yeah, at least she's being honest.
 
rated said:
I think you're underestimating how badly Nashville was offensively.
Click to expand...

Well, it's hard to get worse than last in the league in goals for, but they ranked eighth in the league in offence last season and he posted identical offensive numbers.

2011-12: 78 GP 49 points (51 point pace)
2012-13: 48 GP 28 points (48 point pace)
 
I still need more from these advanced stats. So if I look at Phaneuf, if we give that he has some of the hardest assignments (one of the highest QoC in the league), that's fair. But he's also been brutal when he's on the ice. His on-ice CORSI is one of the worst in the league. So it's great that you keep putting him up against the top opponents, but he's kinda sucked when he's been out there.

Compared to Subban, who faces weaker competition (roughly average, with his Rel QoC hovering around 0). But his CORSI is through the roof (top-5 among Dmen), meaning our team does a lot better when he's on the ice than when he's off the ice. Also our team save pct when he's on the ice is a lot higher than when he's not on the ice (he's 2nd among our Dmen behind Gorges, his usual D partner, in that field).

Or what am I truly missing when reading those numbers?
 
UWHabs said:
I still need more from these advanced stats. So if I look at Phaneuf, if we give that he has some of the hardest assignments (one of the highest QoC in the league), that's fair. But he's also been brutal when he's on the ice. His on-ice CORSI is one of the worst in the league. So it's great that you keep putting him up against the top opponents, but he's kinda sucked when he's been out there.

Compared to Subban, who faces weaker competition (roughly average, with his Rel QoC hovering around 0). But his CORSI is through the roof (top-5 among Dmen), meaning our team does a lot better when he's on the ice than when he's off the ice. Also our team save pct when he's on the ice is a lot higher than when he's not on the ice (he's 2nd among our Dmen behind Gorges, his usual D partner, in that field).

Or what am I truly missing when reading those numbers?
Click to expand...

They are brutal if you're comparing him to players who are used differently than he is. Phanuef and Subban aren't comparables. They are used differently.

Phanuef plays the 3rd hardest competition and he only starts his shifts in the offensive zone about 40% of the time. Compare that to Subban who plays only average competition and starts in the offensive zone close to 55% of the time.

Phaneuf's comparables are guys who face elite competition, that start the majority of their shifts outside the offensive zone.

If Phaneuf only faced average opponents and started his shifts in the offensive zone the majority of the time, his numbers would be different. And if Subban played Phaneuf's role, his numbers would be different as well.

Like any stat, they need to be used in context.
 
hockeylover said:
His CORSI relative to QOC is very strong.
Click to expand...

Yup. Almost all the top QoC guys have even or negative Rel Corsi's.

When you factor that Phaneuf has a very strong QoC (top 3 in the league) and he starts close to 60% of his shifts outside the offensive zone (which is again one of the highest in the league), his CORSI is actually pretty great.

Phaneuf has almost every disadvantage possible in that he's facing the best offensive players and these offensive players are starting in offensive parts of the ice.
 
Last edited:
PlayerToBeNamedLater said:
Yup. Almost all the top QoC guys have even or negative Rel Corsi's.

When you factor that Phaneuf has a very strong QoC (top 3 in the league) and he starts close to 60% of his shifts outside the offensive zone (which is again one of the highest in the league), his CORSI is actually pretty great.

Phaneuf has almost every disadvantage possible in that he's facing the best offensive players and these offensive players are starting in offensive parts of the ice.
Click to expand...

His o-zone starts are similar to the other D on your team. His QoC is higher, true, but his corsi is terrible compared to them all.

And the bigger Q is how much of that is team-specific, and how much player-specific? Nobody on the Habs started less than 48% in the offensive zone, but nobody on the Leafs started more than 48%. If your team "average" o-zone start is 42-43%, then his 41% is just slightly below average for your team. But if your team o-zone start % is 50% or more, like the Habs, then those numbers aren't comparable in the least.
 
UWHabs said:
His o-zone starts are similar to the other D on your team. His QoC is higher, true, but his corsi is terrible compared to them all.

And the bigger Q is how much of that is team-specific, and how much player-specific? Nobody on the Habs started less than 48% in the offensive zone, but nobody on the Leafs started more than 48%. If your team "average" o-zone start is 42-43%, then his 41% is just slightly below average for your team. But if your team o-zone start % is 50% or more, like the Habs, then those numbers aren't comparable in the least.
Click to expand...

That's the reason. He's matched up against Stamkos and Crosby and Tavares and the other defensemen aren't.
 
Again, if you aren't comparing Phaneuf to dmen that are used like him, his corsi will seem terrible in comparison.

Of course a guy like Fraser has a better CORSI than Phaneuf. Fraser plays against the other teams 3rd/4th lines. If you use these stats without context, they are useless.
 
PlayerToBeNamedLater said:
I agree with you that +/- does play a role in the voting...but it shouldn't because it's a useless, outdated stat.

If you look at the dmen who faced the toughest competition this year, for almost all of them, their +/- stats are average or mediocre.

Top 10 Dmen in Rel QoC with +/- stat
(min 30 games played and min 16 min ES per game)

1. Ekman-Larsson: +5
2. Michalek: +4
3. Phaneuf: -4
4. Hjalmarsson: +15
5. Giordano: -7
6. Bouwmeester: -6
7. Kronwall: -5
8. Robidas: +2
9. Pietrangelo: E
10. Gunnarsson: +5


It's almost impossible to play against the opposing teams best players every night and post a top +/-. Basically, if you play against the best players consistently, you're penalized, when in fact you should be celebrated.
Click to expand...

the annoying part is that phaneyf was a healthy plus player when he wasn't paired with holzer.

I still can't believe that randy played holzer on the top. pair for half the season.
 
hockeylover said:
That's the reason. He's matched up against Stamkos and Crosby and Tavares and the other defensemen aren't.
Click to expand...

I guess where I'm coming from, 1 point of Corsi rel QoC is worth how many points of Corsi rel for him? He's about 0.7 QoC ahead of Gunnarson, but his Corsi is almost 7 points worse. Is he better than Gunnarson?

And then comparing between teams, when you start looking at o-zone, it gets even muddier. His 41% is low, but there are 18D with o-zone less than 44, and Toronto has 4 of them. He's actually only the 3rd lowest on his team in that.

So I understand from these stats when they line up how to compare. Higher QoC + higher Corsi + lower O-Zone = better defensively. My problem at the moment with the stats is when I see 2 of 3 agree for a player, but the 3rd is out of line. How big of an impact is that other point when evaluating the player?
 
PlayerToBeNamedLater said:
They are brutal if you're comparing him to players who are used differently than he is. Phanuef and Subban aren't comparables. They are used differently.

Phanuef plays the 3rd hardest competition and he only starts his shifts in the offensive zone about 40% of the time. Compare that to Subban who plays only average competition and starts in the offensive zone close to 55% of the time.

Phaneuf's comparables are guys who face elite competition, that start the majority of their shifts outside the offensive zone.

If Phaneuf only faced average opponents and started his shifts in the offensive zone the majority of the time, his numbers would be different. And if Subban played Phaneuf's role, his numbers would be different as well.

Like any stat, they need to be used in context.
Click to expand...

you're not even mentioning that he has league wirst QoT thanks to playing most of the season with holzer and kostja.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top