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Leafs' Prospect/Marlies Discussion Thread!

Re: Leafs' Prospect Discussion Thread!

zeke said:
you just waxed poetic about how much more important C was than W, and then you ask this?

I think you might be BSing us. I think you just have size bias.
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Listen, I'm not saying it wouldn't be valuable to have two great centre prospects in the organization, it would.

I'm just cognizant of the experience we had with Naz where we bounced him from centre to wing to centre to wing and I worry about making the perfect the enemy of the good.

Right now, his performance as a left winger with the Marlies has made him unquestionably a top five hockey prospect in the world. If William Nylander can be the same calibre of player offensively at centre as he has proven to be as a left winger than I'm all for it.

I want him playing where he's most effective, period.
 
Re: Leafs' Prospect Discussion Thread!

Nylander put up one of the best 18 year old seasons ever in the SHL playing center.

Top 10 18 year old seasons SHL
1. Tomas Sandstrom - 36 gm, 23 gls, 37 pts, 1.03 ppg
2. Markus Naslund - 39 gp, 22 gls, 40 pts, 1.03 ppg
3. William Nylander - 21 gp, 8 gls, 20 pts, 0.95 ppg
4. Daniel Sedin - 50 gp, 21 gls, 42 pts, 0.84 ppg
5. Nicklas Anderson - 38 gp, 10 gls, 29 pts, 0.76 ppg
6. Peter Forsberg - 23 gp, 7 gls, 17 pts, 0.74 ppg
7. Tomas Steen - 23 gp, 7 gls, 17 pts, 0.74 ppg
8. Kevin Fiala - 20 gp, 5 gls, 14 pts, 0.70 ppg
9. Henrik Sedin - 49 gp, 12 gls, 34 pts, 0.69 ppg
10. Patirk Erikson - 35 gp, 14 gls, 23 pts, 0.66 ppg


Sure looks like he is a pretty damn effective center. Seems like the same situation as Marner, a guy who plays like a center, has had great success as a center, but is written off as a center because of size. Fortunately I don't think our management shares the same thought process about little guys.
 
Re: Leafs' Prospect Discussion Thread!

Thats the crazy part of it all. 5'11 170 at 18 isn't even small. There are a ton of good centers in the NHL that size.

Its not like we are talking about guys like Briere or Johnson, who can also play center anyway despite the size.
 
Re: Leafs' Prospect Discussion Thread!

This happens all the time on this board and, quite frankly, it's irritating.

Someone makes an argument, as I have in this case, stating an opinion that runs contrary to that held by some of the board's most frequent posters. Often the original poster is accused of harboring a secret bias which these other posters view as narrow-minded and is forced to explain why they hold their opinion. In my case here, it's caution. The fact that we have developed the prospect to this point in the AHL with great results as winger.

The posters who fostered the original accusation either gloss over the reasoning provided with a tacit counterpoint. Or they continue to accuse the original poster of bias and pretend that anything said only supports their accusation. They then proceed to demean the original poster.

It is this level of antagonistic groupthink that often makes this board a dull place to post.
 
Re: Leafs' Prospect Discussion Thread!

a.k.a. "I'm butthurt that people disagree with me"

It's a message board. That's why we post here. It would be really boring if we all agreed.
 
Re: Leafs' Prospect Discussion Thread!

You stated that Nylander has had more success as a winger, and I respond with concrete evidence of success as a center. He literally put up the 3rd best ppg ever for an 18 year old playing in the 2nd or 3rd best pro league in the world playing center.

The fact is Nylander has been just as successful no matter what position he has played.
 
Re: Leafs' Prospect Discussion Thread!

As for the size bias thing, this is just the second quality center prospect you've relegated to wing permanently recently. And you aren't the only guy to have that opinion. The size bias in hockey is prevalent. Its also an outdated way of thinking.
 
Re: Leafs' Prospect Discussion Thread!

leafman101 said:
As for the size bias thing, this is just the second quality center prospect you've relegated to wing permanently recently. And you aren't the only guy to have that opinion. The size bias in hockey is prevalent. Its also an outdated way of thinking.
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Once again, I'm not relegating anybody to anything. Not once have I said anything about opposing the idea of Nylander playing centre, I've said I don't understand the fascination with moving him there. I've said that he's had success playing winger (which he has), a position where he's played twice as many games this year as he has at centre.

My hesitance comes, as I've now stated multiple times, from our experience with Nazem Kadri where he persistently moved him between positions. I would, by the way, be saying this if it was Frederik Gauthier or Carter Verhaeghe or Andreas Johnson or Pierre Engvall. It is my belief that you develop prospects at the position where they are able to provide maximum value to your hockey club, full stop.
 
Re: Leafs' Prospect Discussion Thread!

Kadri, Giroux, Zetterberg, Seguin, O'Rielly etc. Young centers playing wing is a pretty regular occurrence in hockey. IMO that shouldn't be a concern. Nor should it lock them into playing wing permanently.
 
Re: Leafs' Prospect Discussion Thread!

I didn't interpret Irish's posts as suggesting that Nylander be locked into playing the wing permanently. I interpreted his comments as stating that the Leafs have unnecessarily moved a previous top prospect between positions repeatedly and it hindered his development, therefore there is no issue with leaving Nylander to play the wing for now. Stability is good for young players.

Nylander could be moved down the middle eventually, but for now there's no problem with him learning how to play the wing effectively. It certainly has not hindered his production offensively.
 
Re: Leafs' Prospect Discussion Thread!

IrishWolfman said:
Once again, I'm not relegating anybody to anything. Not once have I said anything about opposing the idea of Nylander playing centre, I've said I don't understand the fascination with moving him there. I've said that he's had success playing winger (which he has), a position where he's played twice as many games this year as he has at centre.

My hesitance comes, as I've now stated multiple times, from our experience with Nazem Kadri where he persistently moved him between positions. I would, by the way, be saying this if it was Frederik Gauthier or Carter Verhaeghe or Andreas Johnson or Pierre Engvall. It is my belief that you develop prospects at the position where they are able to provide maximum value to your hockey club, full stop.
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I respect your opinion and we should all agree with it so this can become a better forum for all.

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Re: Leafs' Prospect Discussion Thread!

JaysCyYoung said:
I didn't interpret Irish's posts as suggesting that Nylander be locked into playing the wing permanently.
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That is not what he said though. Nylander is having success on the wing, so wouldn't Markus Naslund be enough?

IMO locking guys into roles, or positions at 18 makes no sense for their development. That is something the old management group did, and the new guys have said they won't. They players should be given every oppotunity to maximize their potential, and Nylanders play should be the sole determining factor, not any pre-conceived ideas of what he is or should be, or what a center is or should be.

Where is the sense is saying "well you've had 30 good games on the wing, you're a winger now"?
 
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Re: Leafs' Prospect Discussion Thread!

And the Kadri example IMO tells us only that the leafs are being incredibly stupid (again) playing Nylander on the wing right now.
 
Re: Leafs' Prospect Discussion Thread!

If Nylander turns in three consecutive First All-Star Team seasons on the wing and wins a Ted Lindsay, I'm perfectly happy with that.

And Irish didn't say that he wanted Nylander permanently on the wing. He said that it made no sense to move him right now while he's experiencing a prolonged period of success and getting used to the position.

That does not rule out moving Nylander back down the middle at some point in the future. The constant yo-yoing of the Leafs best guys has to stop though.
 
Re: Leafs' Prospect Discussion Thread!

Not every player is the same. The Leafs' mistake with Nazem Kadri (or at least, one of many) wasn't putting him on the wing in the first place---it was keeping him on the wing when he was obviously far less effective playing in that position. Since it appears that Nylander has every bit as effective on the wing as he was at center in the SHL, and since he's found great chemistry playing left wing on a line with Froese and Frattin, I don't see the problem with keeping him there for the rest of this year.

He's very early in his development still, and they can always re-evaluate the best place to play him next year. Hell, Sundin didn't even start playing center until he'd been in the NHL for 4-5 years.
 
Re: Leafs' Prospect Discussion Thread!

No one wouldn't be happy if Nylander had a career like Naslund. That isn't a reason to keep him on the wing though. Its completely irrelevant. Its just more unnecessarily trying to fit unique 18 year old individual into some box for no reason. Thats exactly what Burke did, and what these guys said they won't do.

And moving from center to wing isn't yo-yo-ing. Players do it all the time, and the ability to do it is only a benefit to the Leafs. Even if he is a winger long term, facing tougher assignment and more defensive responsibility is only a positive to his development. The Kadri example is a dumb one anyway. How did shifting him to center hurt his development? He has turned into a quality top 6 center at 23-24. All his issues are non-hockey related and have nothing to do with moving from wing to center. He just never made the off ice commitment they asked of him.

Its not like calling him up and sending him back down every 5 games.
 
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Re: Leafs' Prospect Discussion Thread!

LeafGm said:
Not every player is the same. The Leafs' mistake with Nazem Kadri (or at least, one of many) wasn't putting him on the wing in the first place---it was keeping him on the wing when he was obviously far less effective playing in that position. Since it appears that Nylander has every bit as effective on the wing as he was at center in the SHL, and since he's found great chemistry playing left wing on a line with Froese and Frattin, I don't see the problem with keeping him there for the rest of this year.

He's very early in his development still, and they can always re-evaluate the best place to play him next year. Hell, Sundin didn't even start playing center until he'd been in the NHL for 4-5 years.
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+1.

Playing Nylander on the wing right now doesn't rule out an eventual return to centre down the road. We shouldn't pigeon-hole him into either role permanently, especially if he develops an aptitude for playing one position over the other.
 
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