OT: The Toronto Blue Jays

[UWHabs]

I don't see why we move Sanchez, Stroman or Osuna. Those are our upside plays. We need them to be better but they are as high potential as it gets. You're not getting a better prospect back for Osuna than a 23 year old with the most saves in mlb history for his age. Stroman hates losing, is being a baby. So what. Sanchez has been disappointing but its not like it a structural problem with him. We move him and i see him burning us.

All the other guys that are 30ish+ can be moved. Martin, Tulo, Donaldson, Morales, Smoak, Pillar, all our relievers sans Osuna.

Tulo and Morales can't be moved.

The reason to move Sanchez, Stro, and Osuna are simply due to years of control. They're all FA after 2020, so if you don't expect to be competitive before then, then you have to move them now while you get something back for them. It's like the Mets with deGrom - they don't want to move him, but they have to decide whether they think they can compete next year or not. And if you're not going to be competitive, then you have deal guys to get max value.

Now, there's definitely an argument for keeping them all for a bit to rebuild value. Sanchez especially - if you keep him and next year he gets back to form the first half of the year, then that ups his trade value from what it would be this winter. But for Osuna and Stroman, you need to figure out if they're guys to build around even through their FA years or not. If they are, you really do need to have them signed to a long term contract with control now. But if they're not someone you think you should be paying FA prices to, then you have to deal them now to get max value back.

 

[Leafin']

We have nothing to spend that money on. We don't sign upper echelon free agents. We won't have albatross deals in Tulo, Martin and Donaldson hanging over us. Have to spend that money somehow. Resign our guys and keep it rolling. We don't have enough pitching in the upper minors as is. If they get resigned to good value deals they can always be moved later.

 

[UWHabs]

We have nothing to spend that money on. We don't sign upper echelon free agents. We won't have albatross deals in Tulo, Martin and Donaldson hanging over us. Have to spend that money somehow. Resign our guys and keep it rolling. We don't have enough pitching in the upper minors as is. If they get resigned to good value deals they can always be moved later.

Yeah, I'm not opposed to that. If we want Stroman around, then let's sign him right now to a 5 year deal, and he'll be around when/if we're good again.

But if either we or they aren't willing to commit to that, then we can't afford to go year to year with them. Brad Hand just brought back a top-20 prospect. Osuna would probably be a little less value (due to the allegations and one less year of control). But we need to decide now. Without this court case, he's someone who can bring back a guy like Alex Reyes or Kyle Wright, maybe. But if you delay a couple years and pawn him off at the deadline, then we see the return for that, and it's not much.

So yeah, I'm all for signing these guys to 4-5 year deals right now. But if they won't play with that, then we need to deal for guys who we'll have under control in 2021-2022.

 

[CaptainBolduke]

A bit of a let down but Happ did himself no favors with a horrible month. Drury looks to be a possible undervalued piece that the Yankees had no use for with Andujar coming up. Fits the recent motive of cheap controllable pieces ala Grichuk, Diaz. I was hoping for at least 1 pitching prospect lotto ticket but i guess it just wasn't there to be had.

Drury probably takes over at 3B until Donaldson comes back. I think with some consistent positional playing time we could see Drury improve his defense. Being a league average hitter he gives us a cheap controllable guy until Vlady comes up.

Interesting article i read about Drury being a breakout candidate:
http://rotoprofessor.com/baseball/?p=34815



At 25 years old i wouldn't shoot him down just yet. Especially after just 57 PA's and being hurt with the Yankees this year. Many wanted to DFA Grichuk here early on and he seems to have turned it around a bit.

So you're just going to completely ignore what everyone else is saying about Drury? He was a a borderline DFA candidate with the Yanks and will be 6th or 7th on the MI depth chart with us next season.

 

[leafman101]

Drury is a guy who can play for the next few years. But its not like it is hard to find replacement level players to just play.

The disappointment is Happ was a valuable asset. You can go the safe, low risk way to just ensure you get something that will play back in a deal. But I think most would prefer you swing for the fences to get a player that could potentially make an impact somewhere down the road. Obviously that is risky, and you typically end up with nothing. But its also how you end up stealing a Micheal Young.

Every move can't be the safe, low risk move. That doesn't produce a winning team.

 

[UWHabs]

So you're just going to completely ignore what everyone else is saying about Drury? He was a a borderline DFA candidate with the Yanks and will be 6th or 7th on the MI depth chart with us next season.

He's better than that. He was pegged before the season as a possible breakout candidate by more than one piece, but obviously has been bad in the majors this year. He's basically Solarte (who, btw, is now below replacement level on the season).

 

[CaptainBolduke]

We have nothing to spend that money on. We don't sign upper echelon free agents. We won't have albatross deals in Tulo, Martin and Donaldson hanging over us. Have to spend that money somehow. Resign our guys and keep it rolling. We don't have enough pitching in the upper minors as is. If they get resigned to good value deals they can always be moved later.

Donaldson was never an albatross deal. Never.

I don't think you're either understanding or simply won't accept the way Shatkins operates. The odds of Shatkins signing Sanchez and Stroman to long-term deals is very very minimal.

 

[CaptainBolduke]

He's better than that. He was pegged before the season as a possible breakout candidate by more than one piece, but obviously has been bad in the majors this year. He's basically Solarte (who, btw, is now below replacement level on the season).

Gurriel, Solarte, Travis, Diaz, Vladdy, Tulo and Bichette are all ahead of Drury on the MI depth chart currently for next season.

 

[UWHabs]

Gurriel, Solarte, Travis, Diaz, Vladdy, Tulo and Bichette are all ahead of Drury on the MI depth chart currently for next season.

Bichette won't be on the major roster until July next year. And I don't necessarily think that Drury will be behind Solarte or Travis, all similar guys with some potential but haven't put it all together.

Gurriel/Diaz/Tulo are more SS, which don't compete with Drury.

Wouldn't surprise me in the least if Drury ends up playing more LF and we actually see him as more an OF than an IF going forward, given that infield depth. Or definitely can see guys like Travis or Diaz dealt, maybe Tulo for a salary dump OF if anyone else has a guy who's being paid 30+M more than he's worth.

I mean, they wouldn't have dealt for Drury if they didn't see a place on the team, but as mentioned, IF is crowded with lots of similar players, so I don't see the marginal upgrade value there with him.

 

[UWHabs]

Donaldson was never an albatross deal. Never.

I don't think you're either understanding or simply won't accept the way Shatkins operates. The odds of Shatkins signing Sanchez and Stroman to long-term deals is very very minimal.

You see, ironic that you say that, when Cleveland has built their entire franchise by signing young players to long team-friendly deals.

 

[Leafin']

Donaldson was never an albatross deal. Never.

I don't think you're either understanding or simply won't accept the way Shatkins operates. The odds of Shatkins signing Sanchez and Stroman to long-term deals is very very minimal.

He won't be an albatross contract if we don't sign him.

 

[Leafin']

yea the risk averse strategy is annoying at this point. Everything Shatkins have done has been low risk. Can't blame them as Rogers has proven to be inept and these guys probably want to keep their jobs. Easy way to get fired is to make a horribly bad deal. Imagine they did a reverse Donaldson? They would be out of here the same year the guy wins MVP.

But lets be honest. Happ wasn't having a great year, his numbers have been trending down save for a hot month long stretch. followed by a turd month this last one. At 36 years old and about to be FA i don't see how anyone can be seriously expecting a massive overpay. This trade is far from a win, but its no loss either.

I think Drury has some potential left in him. Along the lines of a Grichuk where he can be a solid big leaguer. You need those types of guys to fill the roster. Its too bad we don't have other star players on the team to slot everyone in place. At least not until Bo and Vlad come up.

 

[MyNameIsJonas]

Gurriel, Solarte, Travis, Diaz, Vladdy, Tulo and Bichette are all ahead of Drury on the MI depth chart currently for next season.

No.

Travis and Diaz are worse, and Solarte is probably gone within the next few weeks.

Bichette i bet you see here July 2nd at the earliest, and it's entirely possible he spends a full year in AAA with this group.

Vlad yes,

Gurriell, could be the new Solarte, but maybe.

Tulo, lolz.

 

[Leafin']

Drury ends up being the 3B until Vlady comes up imo.

Travis can't stay healthy and in reality can't be trusted. I love the guy but its not in the cards for him it seems.

Gurriel has a chance to be a good player. I like him.

Solarte is a goner soon. Hopefully we get back more in return than what we gave up. I read that Olivares is shitting the bed.

Diaz looks like a decent backup inf.

 

[MindzEye]

Nobody was expecting an overpay for Happ, but a "pay" would have been nice. There's no need to think in terms of wins/losses as the objective in a trade. It all comes down to potential future benefit. In this case, the Jays are going to receive minimal future benefit from this deal. The trade is a wasted opportunity to add young pieces to the organization that actually have a chance to be good players for us in the future. I have a hard time believing that there wasn't the A ball lottery ticket option on the table from numerous teams. It's that this management group values players like Drury, and we see how that's worked out so far.

 

[Leafin']

There wouldn't have been enough development time for those long term high upside Low-A prospects to make a difference even if they made those types of deals in years past. AND even if they made those deals a few years ago many here would be upset that they "blew up" an ALCS contender for high upside Low-A prospects. There was no winning with the way the team was constructed.

This team is losing on the backs of a beat up Martin, toast Tulo, and a seemingly injury prone Donaldson. Those 3 have done nothing and if they were worth their pay this season a lot of the other depth pieces would be slotted better. Solarte shouldn't be sniffing the top of the order. Grichuk, Smoak and Morales would have better lineup protection. Those guys along with our lack of pitching in Stroman and Sanchez is the reason why this team is shit.

If it was up to some here Bautista would still be here on a 30 million per deal. Price at the same price.

Those depth pieces aren't the problem.

 

[leafman101]

They also aren't the solution. There is no reason to be concerned about winning right now. They aren't going to win enough games to matter.

Ideally the goal is to be better than a team that treads water. But that doesn't seem to be the case for Shitkins.

 

[leafman101]

And as for keeping the gang together, everyone knew it was an old team that's window would shut. We just wanted them to actually go for it while they had a contending team instead of slowly let it crumble without obtaining any value in the process. The goal is to win a world series. When you have a contender you go for it. Or you never win a world series.

3 years later they still haven't picked a direction. Where can you expect to end up without a direction.

The smart play was to go all in for 1-3 years and then start the rebuild. They haven't done either.

 

[UWHabs]

They also aren't the solution. There is no reason to be concerned about winning right now. They aren't going to win enough games to matter.

Ideally the goal is to be better than a team that treads water. But that doesn't seem to be the case for Shitkins.

Yeah, that's my flaw. In a vacuum, we got a fairly decent return for a downward trending rental SP. Drury has some upside, and at worst if a good util player. The minor league kid has some power, but may never amount to much. But they're simply not what we need now. I mean, would be awesome if Drury can turn into the next Jose Ramirez or something, but seriously, what's the upside of having Drury the next couple years on our bench over whoever else we pick up. Like, 1 WAR? So he moves us from 75 wins to 76.

Would have loved to have him around a few years ago, and it is in a ways the same reason why the Solarte and Diaz pickups were solid plays - we badly lacked depth. But now that the kids are closer to the show, I don't think that depth is really our need anymore. Maybe it comes in a series of moves, where we flip Travis/Solarte for some of those high-A lotto tickets. But it's basically like putting a 2nd strip of duct tape on a hole in a boat, while the other side has been ripped right off.

 

[MyNameIsJonas]

Nobody was expecting an overpay for Happ, but a "pay" would have been nice. There's no need to think in terms of wins/losses as the objective in a trade. It all comes down to potential future benefit. In this case, the Jays are going to receive minimal future benefit from this deal. The trade is a wasted opportunity to add young pieces to the organization that actually have a chance to be good players for us in the future. I have a hard time believing that there wasn't the A ball lottery ticket option on the table from numerous teams. It's that this management group values players like Drury, and we see how that's worked out so far.

I dont even think it was bad value necessarily, it was just wrong value.

They are trying to keep this window of mediocrity open for some reason without actually spending any money/assets