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**Leafs trade Josh Leivo to Canucks for Michael Carcone**

Wayward DP said:
it's like you refuse to consider the possibility that Kappy was always this talented and was held back by a lack of opportunity...
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Yeah, I refuse to consider it because it’s fantasyland bullshit. And it’s not about whether he had the talent, but whether he demonstrated it.

The lack of opportunity didn’t make him flub shots or shoot straight into the goalie prior to this year. The skill level matured and ratcheted up a level. That’s WHY he’s been given a larger role, it’s not BECAUSE he’s been given a larger role.
 
Ya you're right. The 22 year old former 1st round pick, PPG AHL star needed 4th line duty with Boyle and Martin to learn how to pass and pick corners. His hands were fully incubated at the exact time he got any sniff at more than 4th line duty
 
LeafOfFaith said:
And we often don’t.

There was never any moment that I shit on Kapanen, or said he shouldn’t play, or that we should get rid of him. I simply pointed out the obvious issue and that he looked awesome but his touch needed to get better for him to succeed.
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The only thing obvious here is that your vaunted eye test was wrong about him, as a number of us told you at the time.

To act like you just knew it was a guaranteed outcome here is cute 20/20 bullshit. He could have just as easily been every prior year’s version of Kapanen instead of this year’s version this year.
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Except that a couple of us have been saying that this would happen if he was just given an opportunity. Like I told you last year when you were crying about JVR leaving and I told you that it was cool, we could replace him internally with Kappy and probably be better overall. Well here we are with Kappy getting the opportunity I wanted him to get and looking more or less exactly like I said he would. You can wave your arms now and say that I couldn't possibly know that this would happen, but as a wise man once said: The proof is the proof when it is proven. Well this mother****er sure looks proven.
 
WellPlayed said:
Ya you're right. The 22 year old former 1st round pick, PPG+ AHL star needed 4th line duty with Boyle and Martin to learn how to pass and pick corners. His hands were fully incubated at the exact time he got any sniff at more than 4th line duty
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It's amazing that he can't admit that obviously shit opinions like this were wrong.
 
MindzEye said:
The only thing obvious here is that your vaunted eye test was wrong about him, as a number of us told you at the time.



Except that a couple of us have been saying that this would happen if he was just given an opportunity. Like I told you last year when you were crying about JVR leaving and I told you that it was cool, we could replace him internally with Kappy and probably be better overall. Well here we are with Kappy getting the opportunity I wanted him to get and looking more or less exactly like I said he would. You can wave your arms now and say that I couldn't possibly know that this would happen, but as a wise man once said: The proof is the proof when it is proven. Well this mother****er sure looks proven.
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You mean when you were crying about not signing Tavares?

You’re acting like you said Kapanen was good and I said he was bad. I said he hasn’t proven himself yet, so we shouldn’t refrain from signing another star to give us some guaranteed goals.

But if that exchange somehow constitutes your greatest forum achievement, I don’t want to deny you. Get up on that podium and accept your award.
 
MindzEye said:
It's amazing that he can't admit that obviously shit opinions like this were wrong.
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It’s an obviously shit observation to call that an obviously shit opinion.

I never said anything more than Kapanen hadn’t proven yet that he had an NHLlevel scoring touch. And that was a fact, not an opinion. You can keep trying to falsely paint that as some negative opinion and me shitting on the kid, but it never was. Because I always have only said good things about him and wanted to see him put it all together.

So again, nice try in the attempt to rewrite history.
 
LeafOfFaith said:
You mean when you were crying about not signing Tavares?

You’re acting like you said Kapanen was good and I said he was bad. I said he hasn’t proven himself yet, so we shouldn’t refrain from signing another star to give us some guaranteed goals.

But if that exchange somehow constitutes your greatest forum achievement, I don’t want to deny you. Get up on that podium and accept your award.
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Cute spin.

I told you that we could replace JVR internally and even improve on the position with Kappy. Now you're telling me that I couldn't have possibly known that he was this good.

Here's the thing, a bunch of us knew he was this good. Opportunity is a hell of a drug.
 
The crazy thing to realize is that if Willy hadn't held out, Kappy would STILL be on the 4th line.
 
zeke said:
The crazy thing to realize is that if Willy hadn't held out, Kappy would STILL be on the 4th line.
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Probably true.

Let's not forget that Babcock's first instinct was for gudpro vet Tyler Ennis to get the opportunity to fill in for Nylander. It was only after he bombed in that role throughout the entire pre-season and the first few games to start the year, and when it became apparent Willy would be gone for a while that Kapanen was given the opportunity out of sheer necessity.
 
MindzEye said:
Cute spin.

I told you that we could replace JVR internally and even improve on the position with Kappy. Now you're telling me that I couldn't have possibly known that he was this good.

Here's the thing, a bunch of us knew he was this good. Opportunity is a hell of a drug.
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Kapanen looks awesome but still has a ways to go before he pots 37. I’m pretty confident now he will too, at some point. But there’s an actual basis for that confidence now.

Nevertheless, you said we should bank on Kapanen and not sign Tavares. That was obviously the only actual shit opinion here. No spin at all.

At the end of the day, was your assumption that Kapanen would for sure be a legit scorer as early as this year validated? Sure looking like it. Did I say you were wrong and that it wouldn’t happen? Not once. Did I only say it was a risk and that we can’t just assume it and not sign JT? Yup. Did you agree? Nope.
 
LeafOfFaith said:
Kapanen looks awesome but still has a ways to go before he pots 37.
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He doesn't need to pot 37 to be an improvement on JVR. Kappy can play both wings against any level of competition, PP/PK, etc and do it at a fringe 1st line level. That's way more valuable than a guy who is entirely invisible when he's not tipping the puck in the net.

I’m pretty confident now he will too, at some point. But there’s an actual basis for that confidence now.
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There was always a basis for confidence in his offensive potential.

Nevertheless, you said we should bank on Kapanen and not sign Tavares. That was obviously the only actual shit opinion here. No spin at all.
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I said that Kappy could replace JVR and he clearly can. I also argued that moving Willy to centre mitigated any benefit that signing Tavares would bring as Willy is really likely to be as good as Tavares now or real soon. Not a shit opinion. I further noted that the Tavares money should be ear marked for fixing the abysmal right side of our blueline, which is abysmal still.
 
MindzEye said:
He doesn't need to pot 37 to be an improvement on JVR. Kappy can play both wings against any level of competition, PP/PK, etc and do it at a fringe 1st line level. That's way more valuable than a guy who is entirely invisible when he's not tipping the puck in the net.



There was always a basis for confidence in his offensive potential.



I said that Kappy could replace JVR and he clearly can. I also argued that moving Willy to centre mitigated any benefit that signing Tavares would bring as Willy is really likely to be as good as Tavares now or real soon. Not a shit opinion. I further noted that the Tavares money should be ear marked for fixing the abysmal right side of our blueline, which is abysmal still.
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If Kappy topped out at 15 goals this year, no matter how much you want to point to the other aspects of his game, that doesn’t effectively replace JVR’s goals.

There was always basis for confidence in his offensive abilities, but nothing concrete to hang a hat on to say he’d be a 40 goal scorer. We’re still not even there yet.

And you’re still wrong on the Tavares issue. There’s no getting around what an important addition he is, far more important to have a second 1C than an RHD on a team that’s top 5 in goals against.
 
Kappy's overall game is way better than JVR. You don't have to shelter him. Replacing the offense is just a bonus.

As for deserving an opportunity sooner, he unquestionably did. However, the Leafs development plan has been to overcook prospects and it is very difficult to argue with the results of Shanny's development system so far.
 
leafman101 said:
As for deserving an opportunity sooner, he unquestionably did. However, the Leafs development plan has been to overcook prospects and it is very difficult to argue with the results of Shanny's development system so far.
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That's true at the developmental level (i.e., Marlies and below) but once in the NHL ... you have to give these guys opportunities to perform at high level. I don't think Babcock's results on holding guys like Dermott, Leivo, Kapanen back is driven by developmental concerns. It's about winning and specifically the way Babcock thinks you can win.
 
BeLeafer said:
That's true at the developmental level (i.e., Marlies and below) but once in the NHL ... you have to give these guys opportunities to perform at high level. I don't think Babcock's results on holding guys like Dermott, Leivo, Kapanen back is driven by developmental concerns. It's about winning and specifically the way Babcock thinks you can win.
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Exactly. You don't develop high skill guys on the 4th line.

I mean if every time a skilled young guy comes up he has to play on the 4th line, wait for an injury, and then wait for a vet to fail as injury replacement before getting a legit shot, that's a loss for us. If you look at Kapanen and how well he has played and say "can't argue with keeping him on the 4th line so long, look how ready he is now" that means Babcock can basically never be wrong for not giving someone a legit shot.
 
I don't know. They did it with Marner and Nylander too who are a whole different level than Kappy. I think its part of the plan.

Matthews is the only guy that didn't get that treatment, but he was ready to dominate the second he stepped foot in the league.

Its not like young players are not getting opportunities here. The team is full of young players that have been given opportunities. They have just been getting them later than other teams give them. There is no way any other team would have sent Marner back to junior, or Willy for a 2nd year in the AHL. But the results speak for themselves.
 
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