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OT: The Official Toronto Raptors Thread

Also its not like Kawhi couldn't wait to get out of here. He hopped on a plane to come back here for a 2 day visit, and took all the time he could to make the decision.

Lets not forget that either.
 
leafman101 said:
I think thats an unfair standard given the landscape in the NBA. I mean Miami "attracted" Lebron, but then he left. Cleveland lost Lebron, then "attracted" him, then retained him, then he left.

Golden State attracted KD, then couldn't retain him. San Antionio couldn't retain Kawhi. The Clippers attracted Kawhi, but they also couldn't retain Paul and Griffin. OKC retained PG, then didn't. NO couldn't retain AD.

These guys get around. The Raps are no different than any other organization except maybe the Lakers. Even the Celtics couldn't retain Irving.
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Yes, I get that. There's a ton of player movement in the NBA.

But the bottom line is, all of those teams you've got listed convinced elite players to come to their teams, and/or convinced them to stay for some length of time.

The Raptors have never done that.

And I'll believe that they can now do that when I actually see it happen, rather than taking it on faith weeks after one of those guys left the Toronto at the earliest possible opportunity. Until then, it seems to me that our only chance is to draft and develop one of these guys, or acquire them in a trade. And we probably will have a much better chance if the guy's not American.
 
LeafGm said:
Yes, I get that. There's a ton of player movement in the NBA.

But the bottom line is, all of those teams you've got listed convinced elite players to come to their teams, and/or convinced them to stay for some length of time.

The Raptors have never done that.

And I'll believe that they can now do that when I actually see it happen, rather than taking it on faith weeks after one of those guys left the Toronto at the earliest possible opportunity. Until then, it seems to me that our only chance is to draft and develop one of these guys, or acquire them in a trade. And we probably will have a much better chance if the guy's not American.
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If you're excluding Demar and Kyle from the 'elite player' category, it really leaves the Raps with what, Vince and Kawhi in the franchise's history? Maybe T-Mac? And Vince wanted to leave cause the team around him was no good, and Kawhi won us a championship.

I mean, you're right to say no elite, in his prime star has ever chosen to come to Toronto. but realistically there's only a handful of those guys in the league, they don't move around all that often, and when they do, they seem to gravitate to the basketball mecca markets.

I guess I'm just not taking Kawhi leaving as further evidence of the 'no stars will play in Toronto' narrative. but, as is the case for most of the league, the odds of us luring one of these elite stars in free agency remain pretty low. don't know if that will ever change.
 
LeafGm said:
Regarding Demar---retaining B-list talent for more money than they're likely to make anywhere else isn't really an issue just about anywhere in the NBA.
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Except Demar wasn't considered "B-list" talent at the time (unless if the A list is basically Lebron and Lebron level players). Demar was a multiple time all star who could have had his choice of teams at the max. He took less than the max to stay in Toronto.

As for Lowry, love the guy, but have we forgotten that he wanted to leave but ended up coming back when the market he was hoping existed for him (in San Antonio & Philly, among others) didn't exist, and the Raptors were standing alone offering him top dollar? Let's not pretend he was viewed as an elite NBA player at the time either.
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It still doesn't work with the narrative that these guys don't want to stay. Regardless if it was for the money or not.

The real question is whether or not the Raptors can either attract or retain the true cream-of-the-cop, elite talent in the NBA. I.E., the guys without whom you simply can't win a title in this league, the 2004 Detroit Pistons notwithstanding. Guys who, when they're free agents, will have every team in the league (including the most desirable destinations) falling over themselves to sign them.
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There seems to be one city that can reliably do this though and only one city.

You're ready to throw up the "Mission Accomplished" banner and say that those guys will definitely stay or come now. Whereas I'm a skeptic that's still waiting for actual proof.
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I'm ready to throw up a banner saying that we're as attractive a destination as everywhere other than LA, NY, and Miami...yeah.
 
Wayward DP said:
If you're excluding Demar and Kyle from the 'elite player' category, it really leaves the Raps with what, Vince and Kawhi in the franchise's history? Maybe T-Mac? And Vince wanted to leave cause the team around him was no good, and Kawhi won us a championship.

I mean, you're right to say no elite, in his prime star has ever chosen to come to Toronto. but realistically there's only a handful of those guys in the league, they don't move around all that often, and when they do, they seem to gravitate to the basketball mecca markets.

I guess I'm just not taking Kawhi leaving as further evidence of the 'no stars will play in Toronto' narrative. but, as is the case for most of the league, the odds of us luring one of these elite stars in free agency remain pretty low. don't know if that will ever change.
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Regarding Vince, let's not forget that he left....after he stayed. Dude signed a contract to stay, and then left because the organization was a legit bad joke at the time. If you could have put this Masai organization in house at the time Vince was here, he's likely a career Raptor.
 
Can the Raps compete with the elite markets in the league and attract a Lebron/KD/Kawhi level FA? That remains to be seen.

But we can't pretend like no good players have ever stayed here. This championship team was built on two star players staying. Even guys with options like Ibaka and Gasol have stuck around.

And we may not be able to raise a "free agent destination" banner, but we are raising an "NBA Championship" banner, which is way more important, and effectively prove that any concerns about being a free agent destination have not prevented the Raps from winning.
 
MindzEye said:
Except Demar wasn't considered "B-list" talent at the time (unless if the A list is basically Lebron and Lebron level players). Demar was a multiple time all star who could have had his choice of teams at the max. He took less than the max to stay in Toronto.
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Yes, that's what I'm talking about here.

The Derozans, Lowrys, Ibakas, etc. of the world are great. There was a time when even that level of player wanted to get the hell out of here, so we've made definite progress.

But you don't win championships without a player like Lebron, Steph, Kawhi, Durant...and I'm not convinced we're at the point yet where one of those guys will even return Masai's phone call if they're a free agent coming from another team, and I'm not convinced one of those guys would stay any longer than they were absolutely obligated to if we acquired one.

I hope I'm wrong, but I need proof to believe it. Kawhi staying would have provided that proof.

I guess next up, we'll see what happens when Masai takes a swing at one of these guys in 2021.
 
Free agency isn't the only way to get these guys. Kawhi traded. AD traded. Harden traded. PG double traded.

If anything this run proved that you don't need to be a free agent destination to be champs.
 
leafman101 said:
Free agency isn't the only way to get these guys. Kawhi traded. AD traded. Harden traded. PG double traded.

If anything this run proved that you don't need to be a free agent destination to be champs.
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Absolutely.

Luckily we have Masai, and he does seem to be intent on staying.
 
LeafGm said:
Yes, that's what I'm talking about here.

The Derozans, Lowrys, Ibakas, etc. of the world are great. There was a time when even that level of player wanted to get the hell out of here, so we've made definite progress.

But you don't win championships without a player like Lebron, Steph, Kawhi, Durant...and I'm not convinced we're at the point yet where one of those guys will even return Masai's phone call if they're a free agent coming from another team, and I'm not convinced one of those guys would stay any longer than they were absolutely obligated to if we acquired one.

I hope I'm wrong, but I need proof to believe it. Kawhi staying would have provided that proof.

I guess next up, we'll see what happens when Masai takes a swing at one of these guys in 2021.
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As others have pointed out though, you can also trade for those guys. Paul George was originally traded for Dipo (who is very much in that "B" level list, and wasn't even there yet when traded) and Sabonis. That's a lot like Demar and Poetl for Kawhi. So if we are accepting that it's impossible to win a chip without a guy like that (which I would argue isn't the complete picture, but I'll digress for now), and even accepting that it's impossible for the Raptors to get a guy like that to "choose" us in free agency over an elite US market, we still can get our hands on one of those guys. Once you have one of course, there's a non zero chance that you can get them to stay, and with that a non zero chance that his gravity will draw another one of those guys to you in free agency.

The other thing, is that we're so used to these guys being American and that isn't necessarily going to be the case going forward. I don't think a Euro, African, or Canadian stud player is going to have even remotely the same reservations about committing to Canada that an American would.
 
Volcanologist said:
every elite player we've had couldn't wait to get out of here.
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Vince signed an extension to stay when he could have bolted as a free agent.

So we've had 2 elite players. One of them came in trade after asking to be traded to LA, and he went to LA a year later in free agency. The other signed an extension to stay when he could have bolted in free agency.

If we're taking a step down from that, T-Mac has gone on for over a decade about how he wanted to go home but that was a mistake (Tmac was not elite at the time he left), Bosh left a joke of an organization after getting recruited by Lebron, Demar stayed, Kyle stayed.

A step down further? Mighty Mouse played every game in a raptors uniform in the ****ing Skydome.
 
Honestly, everything before 2012 is kind of irrelevant. It was a shitty organization. Players don't want to play for shitty loser organizations.

Since then Kawhi is the only one that left. And the Raps actually made it tough for him even though he wanted to go to LA from the start. Everyone else has stayed. Derozan, Lowry, Gasol, Ibaka. Hell the one star player we traded was beyond upset that he was traded away from the Raps. Lou Williams was pissed that he couldn't stay. JV didn't want to leave.

This organization is in an insanely better place, and players want to play here.
 
MindzEye said:
As others have pointed out though, you can also trade for those guys. Paul George was originally traded for Dipo (who is very much in that "B" level list, and wasn't even there yet when traded) and Sabonis. That's a lot like Demar and Poetl for Kawhi. So if we are accepting that it's impossible to win a chip without a guy like that (which I would argue isn't the complete picture, but I'll digress for now), and even accepting that it's impossible for the Raptors to get a guy like that to "choose" us in free agency over an elite US market, we still can get our hands on one of those guys. Once you have one of course, there's a non zero chance that you can get them to stay, and with that a non zero chance that his gravity will draw another one of those guys to you in free agency.

The other thing, is that we're so used to these guys being American and that isn't necessarily going to be the case going forward. I don't think a Euro, African, or Canadian stud player is going to have even remotely the same reservations about committing to Canada that an American would.
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I mostly agree with this.

I have faith in Masai to keep building this team and keeping it pointed in the right direction, and to strike when the iron's hot and one of these guys becomes available. And because of the NBA's insane player movement, a superstar player becoming available isn't a once-in-a-generation thing like it is in the NHL.

I've also mentioned in previous posts that it's a source of hope for the future that the presence of Canadians, Europeans and Africans in the NBA is increasing. You have to hope that players who've come halfway around in the world to play in the NBA and guys who are actually from Canada won't be allergic to the Canada/US border the same way the American stars are.
 
Gotta love the NBA

Clippers did everything Kawhi asked while mortgaging their future and he only commits for 2 years? Ill laugh if PG and Kawhi sign with the Lakers in 2021
 
LeafGm said:
I mostly agree with this.

I have faith in Masai to keep building this team and keeping it pointed in the right direction, and to strike when the iron's hot and one of these guys becomes available. And because of the NBA's insane player movement, a superstar player becoming available isn't a once-in-a-generation thing like it is in the NHL.

I've also mentioned in previous posts that it's a source of hope for the future that the presence of Canadians, Europeans and Africans in the NBA is increasing. You have to hope that players who've come halfway around in the world to play in the NBA and guys who are actually from Canada won't be allergic to the Canada/US border the same way the American stars are.
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Great post

I think the biggest issue with top USA talent not coming here in UFA is they have no ties to Canada

Euros , with other nations most likely have some family ties to Canada

We can attract the Brogdan`s of the world but why bother overpaying support pieces .
 
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