OT: The Official Toronto Raptors Thread

[PlayerToBeNamedLater]

Re: OT: Raps Game & TJ Ford

Calderon is a RFA at the end of the year. So, he's not going anywhere even if he wanted too.

You wont have to choose between the two PG's.

 

[zeke]

Re: OT: Raps Game & TJ Ford

The Raps aren't good enough that they can afford to have two above average starting PGs on their roster.

It just doesn't make sense - it's a nice luxury and all, but it would make much more sense to move one of them and get a potential all-star at another position.

 

[PlayerToBeNamedLater]

Re: OT: Raps Game & TJ Ford

Combined, Ford and Calderon provide the Raps with top 3 PG play. If you have a top 3 PG on your roster, you would be paying him a salary close to what both Ford and Calderon will be earning combined.

 

[MindzEye]

Re: OT: Raps Game & TJ Ford

The Raps have a bunch of capspace coming up in the summer of 09 and their core is locked up for quite some time. The only positional needs are a banger/shot blocker off the bench and an athletic 2/3 who can hit the outside jumper.

I think it's a better idea to pick up both in free agency before we have to extend Bargnani so we can use the Bird rule and go over the cap. Then it's all about tinkering with the team by using the MLE & LLE to compliment a core of

Bargnani
Bosh
Moon
Star 2 guard (Gordon, Iverson, Magette, Iguodala, Artest, & Arenas could potentially be available)
Ford

Calderon
Banger PF/C (could even be Humphries, he's young with some upside left on the table, but Wilcox, Varejo, R Wallace, Biedrins,& Jeff Foster could be available)
Parker
Kapono

I think you definitely have to sign Calderon long term, and look into trading him him 1-2 seasons into the new deal, hopefully after we've brought in a young #3 point guard who can grow into an above average backup.

 

[zeke]

Re: OT: Raps Game & TJ Ford

I think we could move Ford + Graham + 1 of Parker/Delfino/Kapono/Dixon for an all-star calibre swingman and a serviceable backup PG.....and we'd be a real contender NOW.....without changing our cap situation.

then, when we have the capspace, we go and sign the one thing that's hardest to find in the NBA - a quality genuine physical post player, and then we're one of the best teams in the league.

I guess it depends on how good you think Calderon is - and I happen to think he's very, very good. As a full time starter, I have little doubt he'd be dropping 15 and 10 AT LEAST, and probably more like 18/12, which makes him one of the better PGs in the league.

 

[MindzEye]

Re: OT: Raps Game & TJ Ford

I see it the opposite, I would keep Ford, not Calderon if I was forced to pick one. I don't think Calderon would do much more than 14/8 over the course of a full 82 game sched. Which is very, very good, but I think Ford can be the 18/12 type.

 

[mbow30]

Re: OT: Raps Game & TJ Ford

Yeah, I was just about to say that.

Calderon hasn't shown much big-play high-scoring potential.

He's a great PG and I think he's better than Ford at protecting the rock but he isn't capable of big high scoring efforts like Ford is. When Bosh is out or struggling Ford has proven that he can step in and produce like a primary option. Calderon hasn't come close to showing that with any sort of consistency.

 

[axlsalinger]

Re: OT: Raps Game & TJ Ford

If I had to pick one, I'd keep Ford. He has the potential to become an all-star PG, and is still only 24. That being said, Calderon has been fantastic for us and he isn't a big-ego guy, he doesn't seem to care about starting or money as much as he wants to win and feel comfortable.

Now obviously he's not stupid either, he can't turn down millions but I think Colangelo can and will find a way to keep him financially.

I don't know that we need to try to find an all-star swingman, since Ford, Bosh and in the long-term Bargnani all have elite-level talent. Obviously every team would like to have a guard who can create their own shot and shoot at a high percentage.

Trading Calderon is intriguing, of course, because he can start right now for a number of teams and has good trade value, so I suppose it depends on the offer. But then again, trading any player in the league depends on the offer.

 

[zeke]

Re: OT: Raps Game & TJ Ford

If we're talking about potential, I can see Ford becoming a 22/10 guy, actually.

here's their per-48 minutes stats from this year and last:

this year:

Ford: 26.1ppg (48.7%fg, 27.3%3p, 85.4%ft)), 12.5apg, 2.8a/to
Calderon: 18.8ppg (51.4%fg, 45.2%3p, 91.7%ft), 14.4apg, 6.0a/to

last year:

Ford: 22.4ppg (43.6%fg, 30.0%3p, 81.9%ft), 12.5apg, 2.6a/to
Calderon: 19.9ppg (52.0%fg, 33.0%3p, 81.8%ft), 11.5apg, 3.5a/to


As a "player", I'd say that Ford will probably be the "better" one, although both will be very good.

The thing is, I'm not a guy who wants my point guard to be a 1st or 2nd option on offense.

Jose is my kind of PG - a pass-first guy, who can score whenever the defense cheats....a very smart player who can play the game on the break and in the half court set, and, most importantly, NEVER EVER TURNS OVER THE BALL. he's brilliant in this aspect of the game. He's also more efficient than ford, shooting a much higher percentage over the field - Calderon is over 50% from the field for his career, which is extremely impressive for a PG. He's also much, much better shooting the 3 than Ford, and is at least as good if not better from the line.

As a PG, even though Ford will put up the better scoring numbers, I think Calderon is better for the team.

AND, more importantly, I also think Ford has more trade value than Jose, and can get us an impact scorer at SG/SF in a trade....and that's where I'd rather have my 25ppg scorer - on the wing, not at the point.

and the third benefit of moving Ford is that Ford has the much bigger contract.

 

[Alfamale]

Re: OT: Raps Game & TJ Ford

calderon > ford

 

[MindzEye]

Re: OT: Raps Game & TJ Ford

I can understand your stance Zeke, I just disagree with it. I think that explosiveness out of your ballhandler is one of the most important aspects of running a flexible offensive system. Calderon can fool you with a change of pace, but he doesn't have the quickness to consistently abuse defenses and force bad rotations.

The thing that Calderon has over Ford ( decision making ) is something that can be learned, the physical abilities that Ford has over Calderon is something Ford will always have over Calderon.

What can I say? I'm a sucker for high upsides

 

[mbow30]

Re: OT: Raps Game & TJ Ford

The thing is, I'm not a guy who wants my point guard to be a 1st or 2nd option on offense.

The idea behind trading Calderon would be to acquire a second option. The thing I like about Ford, however, is that when you run into injuries, or when the big guy has a bad game, he can step in and produce like a first or second option. Which is why I like him so much. Because he's as good a distributor as Calderon; the only thing he doesn't do as well is protect the ball, but he still has a very good assist:turnover ratio.

Calderon is over 50% from the field for his career, which is extremely impressive for a PG. He's also much, much better shooting the 3 than Ford, and is at least as good if not better from the line.

part of that, though, is that ford attempts lower-percentage shots. the upside is that he sinks a lot of them, although i must admit that calderon has hit a lot of clutch shots for the team the past two seasons.

as for 3-pt shooting--they're equally mediocre (calderon has been very good this year but in limited attempts. they're both at about 31% career marks).

 

[zeke]

Re: OT: Raps Game & TJ Ford

I can understand your stance Zeke, I just disagree with it. I think that explosiveness out of your ballhandler is one of the most important aspects of running a flexible offensive system. Calderon can fool you with a change of pace, but he doesn't have the quickness to consistently abuse defenses and force bad rotations.

I dunno, I just look at a guy like Nash, and it's not explosiveness which makes him the best. Kidd, neither. Stockton. hell, not even really for Marbury.

This is the kind of guy I see when I look at Calderon.

When I look at Ford I see PGs like Marbury, Francis, or maybe a poor man's Iverson. These are not the kind of guys I want running my point if I'm looking for championships.

The thing that Calderon has over Ford ( decision making ) is something that can be learned, the physical abilities that Ford has over Calderon is something Ford will always have over Calderon.

What can I say? I'm a sucker for high upsides

See, I don't think those things can be learned either - you either have them, or you don't. Calderon has a great bball brain, and seems to me to be a natural leader. He seems like much more of a winnner to me than Ford.

I'd say this, though - if Ford had a consistent J, I'd like him much better. But for someone as shot-happy as Ford to have such a poor jump shot just kills me...that's a hole that will always keep him from being great, IMO. In the meantime, he'll proceed to shoot his team out of many a ballgame.

We don't see this weakness so much now, because every time Ford starts getting too selfish, can't make his shots, and starts running around like a wildman and turning the ball over......Sam just brings in Calderon, who almost always calms things down and gets the team working again.

I think Calderon is covering for Ford's biggest weakness - his inconsistencey, belied by his poor jump shot and questionable decision making.

 

[zeke]

Re: OT: Raps Game & TJ Ford

The idea behind trading Calderon would be to acquire a second option. The thing I like about Ford, however, is that when you run into injuries, or when the big guy has a bad game, he can step in and produce like a first or second option. Which is why I like him so much. Because he's as good a distributor as Calderon; the only thing he doesn't do as well is protect the ball, but he still has a very good assist:turnover ratio.

I think you could get more for Ford than you could for Calderon, because most GMs are suckers for pure talent, and Ford has been getting the most minutes. If we want a true 2nd option, Calderon won't be enough to get it. Ford might be.

part of that, though, is that ford attempts lower-percentage shots.

exactly. he forces things. Calderon never forces.

the upside is that he sinks a lot of them, although i must admit that calderon has hit a lot of clutch shots for the team the past two seasons.

Calderon has been pretty much light out this season. When the offensive set stagnates, and he's forced to shoot - he's sinking that shot.

as for 3-pt shooting--they're equally mediocre (calderon has been very good this year but in limited attempts. they're both at about 31% career marks).

Calderon has really turned it up this year, and I think it's obvious that he's been working on it bigtime. He doesn't hesitate from 3-point land, and he's sinking those shots.

He's averaging 1.5 attempts per game....not a lot, but a good amount for a pass-first PG.

 

[mbow30]

Re: OT: Raps Game & TJ Ford

I think you could get more for Ford than you could for Calderon, because most GMs are suckers for pure talent, and Ford has been getting the most minutes. If we want a true 2nd option, Calderon won't be enough to get it. Ford might be.

I'm not sure if I agree with that, because salary is so important in today's NBA and Calderon has a very cap-friendly salary. I also think that teams will see beyond his raw numbers, due to his relative lack of PT, so I don't thikn that should be a problem.

exactly. he forces things. Calderon never forces.

that's one way to spin it, but it's not really true.

ford forces things when he has to, not because he simply wants to. you don't see ford playing high-risk basketball and attempting low percentage shots when the raptors are winning, or in close ball games. but we have seen, on several occasions, him step up offensively and be a primary offensive weapon... and even win some games for the team.

Calderon has really turned it up this year, and I think it's obvious that he's been working on it bigtime. He doesn't hesitate from 3-point land, and he's sinking those shots.

He's averaging 1.5 attempts per game....not a lot, but a good amount for a pass-first PG.

i don't see how you can ignore the 30% from last year.. or the 19% from the season before.

he's obviously worked hard at improving his game, but he's 15% above his career average.... that number will definitely fall below 40 soon enough, and potentially well below 40.

 

[MindzEye]

Re: OT: Raps Game & TJ Ford

I have to disagree about Nash & Kidd, both have lost a step, but both were explosive off of the dribble and Kidd especially was a one man fast break in his prime. Stockton was the epitome of a "true" PG though, but Calderon will never be anything more than a very poor man's John Stockton. I do agree with the stylistic similarities though.

Both Nash & Kidd turned into these floor generals they've become known as after their physical skills started to deteriorate and their BBall IQ's took over. Calderon never had their physical gifts that led to them being dynamite PG's earlier in their careers....Ford does have that physical edge.

At roughly the same point in his development, Nash took care of the ball a lot closer to what Ford does.

In their respective "break out" seasons
Ford (23)(06-07) - 2.57 A/TO
Nash (26)(00-01) - 2.49 A/TO

 

[zeke]

Re: OT: Raps Game & TJ Ford

I think you're underrating Calderon's natural talents.....he might not look explosive compared to TJ, but he's not consistently beating guys off teh dribble for easy lay-ins just by luck.

Calderon has game.

Of course, averaging 19.5p/13.5a per 48 minutes in his first two real seasons in the NBA would seem to indicate that, no?

not to mention the fact that we never seem to miss Ford when he's out of the lineup. we're 4-1 without him this year, with that one loss being a one-basket loss to Lebron.

 

[zeke]

Re: OT: Raps Game & TJ Ford

I'm not sure if I agree with that, because salary is so important in today's NBA and Calderon has a very cap-friendly salary. I also think that teams will see beyond his raw numbers, due to his relative lack of PT, so I don't thikn that should be a problem.

maybe.

I still think Ford's flash makes him more valuable.

that's one way to spin it, but it's not really true.

ford forces things when he has to, not because he simply wants to. you don't see ford playing high-risk basketball and attempting low percentage shots when the raptors are winning, or in close ball games. but we have seen, on several occasions, him step up offensively and be a primary offensive weapon... and even win some games for the team.

I think you're being generous. I think there's been plenty of times we've seen Ford taking silly shots, and attempting silly passes, when he starts getting pressured.

i don't see how you can ignore the 30% from last year.. or the 19% from the season before.

I'm not ignoring it. You're the one ignoring the fact that Calderon is showing 3 point range this year that Ford never has.

he's obviously worked hard at improving his game, but he's 15% above his career average.... that number will definitely fall below 40 soon enough, and potentially well below 40.

not sure if "career average" really applies here - 15% 1st year, 30% 2nd year, 45% 3rd year....that just looks like growth to me.

he won't stay at 45%, but he's definitely showing the ability to be a solid 35-40% shooter from the arc.

 

[da_next_kid]

Re: OT: Raps Game & TJ Ford

People comparing Steve Nash to Calderon is just not true, Nash is such a dynamic PG, his game isn't like Calderon at all. IMO Nash's game is much closer to TJ Ford than Calderon. Obviously Nash's passing instincts and his vision are much superior to Ford.

Watching Phoenix's games through NBA LP, Nash can get by his man on will and roams the court looking for seams and passes. In the 4th Quarter though, he looks for his shot, he is by far the best scorer on the suns in the 4th quarter, I don't even need to look at the stats in order to conclude that. Calderon is a lot more perimeter oriented than Nash, and our points in the paint will indicate that, Suns have better finishers but Nash makes a considerate effort to look for players in the paint.

Obviously, I am not the only one who thinks this way, Nash's former Coach, Don Nelson was quoted as saying that Ford is the closest thing to Nash in the whole League.

 

[MindzEye]

Re: OT: Raps Game & TJ Ford

And I think you're under rating the potential for future growth from a 24 year old point guard.

I'm not a big fan of arguing this subject though, like I said earlier, I would sign Calderon to a nice long 5-6 year deal for 5-6 million a season and just not worry about which one to keep. If we draft a PG at some point in the future, and that PG's play demands more burn, then this is an argument we can make with the help of wider stat sets.

I'll say one thing though, there are very few shooting guards I would trade TJ for.