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Re: Habs News & Notes: 2014-15 Season
Further proof that +/- is a completely useless stat.
Further proof that +/- is a completely useless stat.
Habs-25
Banned
Re: Habs News & Notes: 2014-15 Season
You can say that if you want to but is no coincidence to me that both play some solid hockey lately !
Re: Habs News & Notes: 2014-15 Season
But +/- is useless.
But +/- is useless.
Habs-25
Banned
GGpX
Well-known member
Habs-25
Banned
GGpX
Well-known member
Re: Habs News & Notes: 2014-15 Season
+/- is like wins for a goaltender. Sure, it tells you something, but that something is completely meaningless as it doesn't show they played.
A win for goaltenders is the exact same value whether a goaltender gives up 1 goal on 30 shots or 5 weak goals on 30 shots. Doesn't tell me whether the goalie played good or bad.
+/- just tells me you were on the ice in goals for or goals against. Doesn't tell me if you had anything to do on said goals.
It's a useless stat. It's the reason why smart hockey analysts use save % over GAA & Wins as a stat to compare goalies.
+/- is like wins for a goaltender. Sure, it tells you something, but that something is completely meaningless as it doesn't show they played.
A win for goaltenders is the exact same value whether a goaltender gives up 1 goal on 30 shots or 5 weak goals on 30 shots. Doesn't tell me whether the goalie played good or bad.
+/- just tells me you were on the ice in goals for or goals against. Doesn't tell me if you had anything to do on said goals.
It's a useless stat. It's the reason why smart hockey analysts use save % over GAA & Wins as a stat to compare goalies.
Habsy
Yes, I'm kidding people.
Re: Habs News & Notes: 2014-15 Season
It's not completely useless. It's severely flawed though.
Habs-25
Banned
Re: Habs News & Notes: 2014-15 Season
I know all that and i agree it shouldn't be indication to judge a player but if you look at great defensemen and some players responsible defensively they all have impressive +- Stevens(+377) Neidermayer(+167),Lindstrom (+450),Pronger(+183),Forsberg (+238),P.Bergeron (+106),Hossa(+210),Toews(+141) ,etc . So again coincidence ?!?!
I know all that and i agree it shouldn't be indication to judge a player but if you look at great defensemen and some players responsible defensively they all have impressive +- Stevens(+377) Neidermayer(+167),Lindstrom (+450),Pronger(+183),Forsberg (+238),P.Bergeron (+106),Hossa(+210),Toews(+141) ,etc . So again coincidence ?!?!
Re: Habs News & Notes: 2014-15 Season
Those are players who played on really good teams.
Anton Stralman is the second best +/- in the league this year in Tampa at +14
A couple years ago he was a dreadful -17 on a terrible Columbus team.
You figure he miraculously turned from terrible to awesome?
Those are players who played on really good teams.
Anton Stralman is the second best +/- in the league this year in Tampa at +14
A couple years ago he was a dreadful -17 on a terrible Columbus team.
You figure he miraculously turned from terrible to awesome?
Habs-25
Banned
Re: Habs News & Notes: 2014-15 Season
This is stats of overall career that i posted above not just one season .Yes being in a good team can help for all kind of stats not only+- . I am not big fan of +- but is an indication ..
BTW : Hossa played during dark years of Sens also and with Trashers and Bergeron playing with Boston for over 10 years now , are you telling me Boston was great always during last 10 years ?!?!
This is stats of overall career that i posted above not just one season .Yes being in a good team can help for all kind of stats not only+- . I am not big fan of +- but is an indication ..
BTW : Hossa played during dark years of Sens also and with Trashers and Bergeron playing with Boston for over 10 years now , are you telling me Boston was great always during last 10 years ?!?!
Re: Habs News & Notes: 2014-15 Season
I know... those guys played their entire careers on really good teams. Of course they have great +/-s.
I know... those guys played their entire careers on really good teams. Of course they have great +/-s.
Habs-25
Banned
Re: Habs News & Notes: 2014-15 Season
You didn't read my whole post then . read that part when i mentioned Hossa and Bergeron .
You didn't read my whole post then . read that part when i mentioned Hossa and Bergeron .
Re: Habs News & Notes: 2014-15 Season
If you want to keep using +/- to judge players in any way then go ahead.
If you want to keep using +/- to judge players in any way then go ahead.
Habs-25
Banned
Re: Habs News & Notes: 2014-15 Season
IMHO any kind of statistics can't give you real indication of how a player is because as you said it all depends of team you are playing for .It can be an indication but not only way to judge some one ..
IMHO any kind of statistics can't give you real indication of how a player is because as you said it all depends of team you are playing for .It can be an indication but not only way to judge some one ..
Re: Habs News & Notes: 2014-15 Season
Well no... goals and assists are actually a result of a play made by the player. +/- can be a result of the player... but it can also have nothing to do with the player at all.
Well no... goals and assists are actually a result of a play made by the player. +/- can be a result of the player... but it can also have nothing to do with the player at all.
GGpX
Well-known member
Re: Habs News & Notes: 2014-15 Season
So you're telling me that great players who played their whole careers on good teams are on the ice when their teams score goals more often than when their team gets scored on?
I never knew that. I never knew that good players scored a lot and weren't on the ice for goals. Thankfully, +/- is there to help and educate me.
I guess that Scott Stevens a +377 is 3 times the d-man Scott Niedermayer is too.
Also, John Tavares is a career -46. And he plays for the Islanders. Steve Stamkos, career +1. And he plays for Tampa Bay. Taylor Hall, career -18. Plays for Edmonton. COINCIDENCE ?!?!
Sarcasm aside, those +/- stats still tell me nothing.
So you're telling me that great players who played their whole careers on good teams are on the ice when their teams score goals more often than when their team gets scored on?
I never knew that. I never knew that good players scored a lot and weren't on the ice for goals. Thankfully, +/- is there to help and educate me.
I guess that Scott Stevens a +377 is 3 times the d-man Scott Niedermayer is too.
Also, John Tavares is a career -46. And he plays for the Islanders. Steve Stamkos, career +1. And he plays for Tampa Bay. Taylor Hall, career -18. Plays for Edmonton. COINCIDENCE ?!?!
Sarcasm aside, those +/- stats still tell me nothing.
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GGpX
Well-known member
Re: Habs News & Notes: 2014-15 Season
Hossa played during the Senators dark years? Really? You mean those same Sens teams that made the playoffs every single year and never won less than 39 games every year he was there?
Yeah, dark years indeed.
And the two first years he was in Atlanta, Atlanta missed the playoffs by two points the first time and finished third in the conference the second year there. Had good +/- those years. His third year there, before being traded to Pittsburgh, Atlanta finished second to last in the East. Hossa was -17. So Hossa changed overnight into a terrible player who couldn't play defense, right? Or could it be that +/- doesn't tell me a damn thing about his play?
Patrice Bergeon, heh. In his four first years in the league, Boston made the playoffs in his rookie year and then missed the next two years & Bergeron was injured for nearly all of the year after that. Anyway, Boston had bad to mediocre teams those four years. Bergeron's +/- during those four seasons? -18.
+/- tells me nothing when it comes to a player. Zero, zilch, nada.
Hossa played during the Senators dark years? Really? You mean those same Sens teams that made the playoffs every single year and never won less than 39 games every year he was there?
Yeah, dark years indeed.
And the two first years he was in Atlanta, Atlanta missed the playoffs by two points the first time and finished third in the conference the second year there. Had good +/- those years. His third year there, before being traded to Pittsburgh, Atlanta finished second to last in the East. Hossa was -17. So Hossa changed overnight into a terrible player who couldn't play defense, right? Or could it be that +/- doesn't tell me a damn thing about his play?
Patrice Bergeon, heh. In his four first years in the league, Boston made the playoffs in his rookie year and then missed the next two years & Bergeron was injured for nearly all of the year after that. Anyway, Boston had bad to mediocre teams those four years. Bergeron's +/- during those four seasons? -18.
+/- tells me nothing when it comes to a player. Zero, zilch, nada.