OT: The News Thread

[JaysCyYoung]

I haven't missed anything. I don't think proportionality has anything to do with it. It has to do with perceived value, not a death calculator like you're advocating here. There's no equivalency based on a certain set of numbers or criteria. Israel will continue to attack the source of the threat until it has been eliminated.

When was the last time any of them rattled Israel's cage beyond a bit of funding for Hamas? I have a hard time seeing why we would conflate this with any sort of broader regional issue that hasn't really been an issue for decades. The Israeli's have nothing to fear from Hamas. An irritation, and frankly, one used to great effect by the Israeli right wing on a political level.

When was the last time any of them took an active hand in getting rid of Hamas? Ordinary people can't sit idly by in indifference and allow an organization, whom they have largely acquiesced to, which in turn has led to its flourishing and obtaining of weapons, create a security threat for themselves as well as Israel. They bear a large degree of culpability for not getting rid of their own problem.

And its lovely that you seem to think that Israel has nothing to fear from Hamas. You try living in an incredibly geographically small country and live under constant threat of rocket attacks, mortaring, and suicide bombings. You are removed from the situation so you downplay its significance. If you lived there you would think differently.

As long as Hamas exists there can be no credible peace process on either side. It needs to be completely eradicated.

 

[corksens]

Hamas clearly views mortality as less valuable than Israel. There is no need for proportionality.

 

[JaysCyYoung]

That's interestingly another valid point. Life is deemed to be incredibly cheap in the wider Muslim world. When something like that, which is held to be such a precious resource in the Western world due to our opposing value systems, is deemed as expendable to them why should we not treat it as such?

They obviously care very little for the lives of their own citizens. Otherwise they would not constantly put them in harm's way where they know it'll be endangered. Israel obviously places a much higher value on the sanctity of their own citizens, so what others might view as disproportional tactics they view them as perfectly justified given the different values.

Hence why they would often give up dozens of terrorist prisoners just for the return of corpses of dead Israelis.

 

[leafman101]

Terrorist organizations should not be allowed to set the values on innocent civilian lives though.

 

[TheCountofMonteCristo]

For the record, though i was against the missile strikes, I am pro this Israel ground invasion, and am leaning towards a one state solution.

If even one palestinian had publicly condemned Hamas, I might feel differently.

you do realize Israel doesn't want a one state solution as they would be swallowing themselves whole unless they deny palestinians in the occupied territories voting rights as demographics sewer the Israelies in maybe 20 years.

 

[zeke]

The attacked a hospital and only killed 5 people. Its not like they Jokered the place and massacred cancer patients. They are telling civilians where and when they are coming and to get out of the way which is kind of counter intuitive in war. Israel is working a lot harder than most nations do to prevent casualties in situations like this.

Its a really, really tough situation that there doesn't seem to be any solution to. Never mind an easy one with no casualties.

the real piss off here is that Israel is warning palestinian civilians to leave, while Hamas is asking their own civilians - probably forcing them - to stay in the line of fire.


now THAT is a clear war crime. human shields are an absolute no go.

 

[TheCountofMonteCristo]

That's interestingly another valid point. Life is deemed to be incredibly cheap in the wider Muslim world. When something like that, which is held to be such a precious resource in the Western world due to our opposing value systems, is deemed as expendable to them why should we not treat it as such?

They obviously care very little for the lives of their own citizens. Otherwise they would not constantly put them in harm's way where they know it'll be endangered. Israel obviously places a much higher value on the sanctity of their own citizens, so what others might view as disproportional tactics they view them as perfectly justified given the different values.

Hence why they would often give up dozens of terrorist prisoners just for the return of corpses of dead Israelis.

Gaza is kind of densely populated, it is disingenuous for Israel and its acolytes to complain about putting weapons in populated areas, where else in Gaza can they be put?

It is still about a 20-25/1 kill ratio, Israel is not really paying the same price as the Palestinians.

 

[zeke]

The people of Gaza, who suffer from Hamas rule, appear to be tired of it. In a recent Pew poll, 63 percent of Gazans surveyed disapproved of Hamas. Perhaps this is because the people have come to realize that Hamas has brought them nothing but grief, sloganeering, and military defeat.]

that is actually refreshing, even if 63% is still depressingly low.

still, that's a good sign.

 

[SundinsTooth]

Hamas clearly views mortality as less valuable than Israel. There is no need for proportionality.

So you would be ok with eradication? Kill em all, kind of solution?

 

[zeke]

That's interestingly another valid point. Life is deemed to be incredibly cheap in the wider Muslim world.

no need to start going this far, jays.

 

[SundinsTooth]

Blame the evil ****s who keep sacrificing their own by showering Hamas with weapons.

 

[Habspatrol]

INTERNET TOUGH GUY. UH OH.

Meh, sometimes a guy is a real life tough guy and we just happen to be talking on the internetz.

 

[TheCountofMonteCristo]

In a fight between Patrol and Jays, I put my money on Patrol. Northern guys know how to fight.

 

[JaysCyYoung]

I just laugh whenever people threaten other people with physical violence online. It's such stupid posturing. If you're tough you don't need to express as much.

 

[JaysCyYoung]

In a fight between Patrol and Jays, I put my money on Patrol. Northern guys know how to fight.

He weighs like 2.5 times as much as me. Of course he'd win.

But we were talking about Mindz, who weighs like 2.25 times as much in any event.

 

[corksens]

So you would be ok with eradication? Kill em all, kind of solution?

Don't be daft. I view both sides as having an equal right to live.

But comparing death tolls isn't a level measure. Hamas purposely keeps their citizenry in danger. As zeke stated, human shields are an absolute no go at this point in history.

 

[TheCountofMonteCristo]

He weighs like 2.5 times as much as me. Of course he'd win.

But we were talking about Mindz, who weighs like 2.25 times as much in any event.

Oh Mindz takes you out more quickly than Patrol. Wouldn't mind watching a fight between those two though.

 

[TheCountofMonteCristo]

Don't be daft. I view both sides as having an equal right to live.

But comparing death tolls isn't a level measure. Hamas purposely keeps their citizenry in danger. As zeke stated, human shields are an absolute no go at this point in history.

I am sure they have their weapons in civilian areas and probably do use civilians as shields, but in all fairness, it is mostly the Israelis who tell the world they do that in order to try and win the propaganda war.

 

[JaysCyYoung]

Oh Mindz takes you out more quickly than Patrol. Wouldn't mind watching a fight between those two though.

Oh I agree.

Fort Mac Crack >>> Lumber Mill/Trucker strength.

 

[JaysCyYoung]

I am sure they have their weapons in civilian areas and probably do use civilians as shields, but in all fairness, it is mostly the Israelis who tell the world they do that in order to try and win the propaganda war.

You don't possibly believe this do you?