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OT: American Politics

You could think that... errantly.

Then your statement only makes sense if you completely ignore the fact that this is an investigation into a confirmed crime. Call me when Mueller is dragging Kid Rock, Toby Keith, etc in front of a tribunal to question their ties to communism or Russia.
 
There's a lot of people who think they're progressive but they're just liberals. Progressive has come to mean little more than socially liberal.

it's far more than just socially liberal down here. Progressives are radicalizing just like the Alt-Right. Liberals and conservatives aren't radical. Opposing viewpoints sure but not presented in a fascist manner that seems to have engulfed both factions at the extremes of each side.
 
Then your statement only makes sense if you completely ignore the fact that this is an investigation into a confirmed crime. Call me when Mueller is dragging Kid Rock, Toby Keith, etc in front of a tribunal to question their ties to communism or Russia.

You're missing the nuance of mission creep. McCarthyism was rife with it and it was used extensively and with malice. Russia was just the face of the movement.
 
I go back and forth on whether the difference on one massively key policy issue - public healthcare - is a product of a different ideological spectrum, or actually one of the major causes of the difference in each country's ideological spectrum.

i.e. if FDR had managed to put public healthcare in place way back when, would there be any recognizable difference between the american political spectrum and canada/europe's at all?

Good point. The New Deal was killed before the US could build the kind of welfare state we used to have here. That history does have an impact for sure. I mean, it is absurd for people to reject an obviously rational solution unless they're ignorant or misinformed. In place of a public health care system, the US has massive corporate interests that do their damnedest to misinform the American people.
 
Fox et al have spent decades turning words like "liberal" "progressive" and "socialism" into curse words.

it's little use actually trying to have a debate about those words or even using those words anymore.
 
it's far more than just socially liberal down here. Progressives are radicalizing just like the Alt-Right. Liberals and conservatives aren't radical. Opposing viewpoints sure but not presented in a fascist manner that seems to have engulfed both factions at the extremes of each side.

Yeah, for sure. There's also a lot of progressives that go well beyond merely liberal. Large numbers of Americans, particularly younger ones, self-identify as socialist or democratic socialist.
 
Fox et al have spent decades turning words like "liberal" "progressive" and "socialism" into curse words.

it's little use actually trying to have a debate about those words or even using those words anymore.

Meh. They're not curse words, they're identifiers. Then again, that flies in the face of my loathing of identity politics so I need to rethink things concerning this I think.
 
In some ways, the American population is more left than the Canadian one. The following that Bernie generated shocked a lot of people. I don't think the youth (by that I mean <35) in Canada are nearly as left as in the US.
 
You're missing the nuance of mission creep. McCarthyism was rife with it and it was used extensively and with malice. Russia was just the face of the movement.

Not remotely the same thing as actual McCarthyism. We're back to you not understanding what that actually was again. Call me when the first person is questioned for being a communist "sympathizer".
 
In some ways, the American population is more left than the Canadian one. The following that Bernie generated shocked a lot of people. I don't think the youth (by that I mean <35) in Canada are nearly as left as in the US.
I think it's more of a urban < 35 vs rural < 35 thing (actually that probably applies to people of all ages)
 
Fox et al have spent decades turning words like "liberal" "progressive" and "socialism" into curse words.

Interestingly, the communist scare stuff his history. People born after 1992, have no experience of it. All of a sudden you get all these young people hearing about socialism for the first time and they love it (people the DNC tried to smear as 'berniebros'). The other thing is that TV and newspapers have none of the sway they used to have, particularly with younger people. Good things are happening.
 
I think it's more of a urban < 35 vs rural < 35 thing (actually that probably applies to people of all ages)

Well, there's just not many people living in rural areas any longer. The vast majority of under 35s are urban/suburban. But it is interesting that Sanders performed very well with older rural voters. It's more of a class thing than age (most youth are from the destroyed middle class and have few prospects).
 
Not remotely the same thing as actual McCarthyism. We're back to you not understanding what that actually was again. Call me when the first person is questioned for being a communist "sympathizer".

You're being very myopic on this. I've read on McCarthyism extensively in college and there was far more to it than singling people out as commies and dragging them in front of a committee. There is little difference between being questioned for being a communist sympathizer and being questioned because you met a Russian. It was used as a tool to destroy people and that is what's also going on here. Sure, you reject my loose interpretation but the similarities are there.
 
Let's look at the definition then:

Mc·Car·thy·ism
/məˈkärTHēˌizəm/Submit
noun
- a vociferous campaign against alleged communists in the US government and other institutions carried out under Senator Joseph McCarthy in the period 1950–54. Many of the accused were blacklisted or lost their jobs, although most did not in fact belong to the Communist Party.

- a campaign or practice that endorses the use of unfair allegations and investigations.

"he practiced McCarthyism long before there was a McCarthy"

The second definition CLEARLY applies to some of the people swept up in all this.
 
You're being very myopic on this. I've read on McCarthyism extensively in college and there was far more to it than singling people out as commies and dragging them in front of a committee. There is little difference between being questioned for being a communist sympathizer and being questioned because you met a Russian. It was used as a tool to destroy people and that is what's also going on here. Sure, you reject my loose interpretation but the similarities are there.

"loose interpretation" is a very kind description of what you're doing here. You're beating the meaning of the term within an inch of it's life. The venn diagram of the two issue only touch because of "Russia" and "investigation".
 
Let's look at the definition then:

The second definition CLEARLY applies to some of the people swept up in all this.

Who exactly?

People were questioned regarding election tampering, and couldn't help but lie their ****ing faces off.
 
You're being very myopic on this. I've read on McCarthyism extensively in college and there was far more to it than singling people out as commies and dragging them in front of a committee. There is little difference between being questioned for being a communist sympathizer and being questioned because you met a Russian. It was used as a tool to destroy people and that is what's also going on here. Sure, you reject my loose interpretation but the similarities are there.

True.
 
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Interestingly, the communist scare stuff his history. People born after 1992, have no experience of it. All of a sudden you get all these young people hearing about socialism for the first time and they love it (people the DNC tried to smear as 'berniebros'). The other thing is that TV and newspapers have none of the sway they used to have, particularly with younger people. Good things are happening.

dems are just so bad at this game.

The conservatives rant about how socialism has "failed" everywhere, while the dems could just point out the greatest socialist success story in the world - the USA.

Without FDR's socialist policies, the USA never becomes the creator of the legendary middle class which made it the powerhouse and envy of the world.

But they're too scared to even use the word. Or at least they were until recently.
 
oh hey remember those Bundy ranchers? they do have principals after all:

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/articl...y-helped-bolster-the-militia-movement-now-hes

For more than six years Ammon Bundy and his family amassed hundreds of followers and supporters willing to pick up a gun at a moment's notice and rally to their side for a confrontation with the federal government.

Bundy led two armed standoffs against the feds in Nevada and Oregon, and his family quickly became the face of a growing militia movement, bringing a national spotlight to armed groups eager for a conflict with what they believed to be an overreaching government.

The militia groups, with members holding a mix of right-wing, anti-government, and conspiratorial views, had been growing since 2008 thanks to their heavy use of social media and binding opposition to then-president Barack Obama. The standoffs in 2014 and 2016 made the Bundy family, including Ammon, leading figures in the movement.

So when he logged on to Facebook last week to speak to his supporters in defense of the caravan of Central American migrants gathered at the southern border, a frequent target of President Trump, he figured he'd face some criticism.

"To group them all up like, frankly, our president has done — you know, trying to speak respectfully — but he has basically called them all criminals and said they're not coming in here," Bundy said in the video. "What about individuals, those who have come for reasons of need for their families, you know, the fathers and mothers and children that come here and were willing to go through the process to apply for asylum so they can come into this country and benefit from not having to be oppressed continually?"

Bundy went on, dispelling conspiracy theories that billionaire George Soros was behind the caravan or that terrorists were using the group to sneak into the US.

But the backlash from his supporters was immediate, with many repudiating Bundy for his views. Followers who had traveled to his father's ranch in Bunkerville, Nevada, in 2014 during an armed standoff with federal agents over unpaid cattle grazing fees said they regretted doing so. Others claimed Bundy was being paid by left-wing "globalists" to switch sides. Some told him they wished he was dead, or that militias had never supported his family.

Bundy was shocked by the swift reaction.

"I expected to get a decent amount of pushback, but I also believed that I could explain to them why I'd taken those positions and why," he told BuzzFeed News. "But you know, I've always had these kinds of thoughts that people were not really listening to the principles of things, that they had aligned with me for some other reasons, and that some of those [reasons] are good and some of those might not be, but this last video kind of confirmed that."

So on Tuesday, Bundy shut down his social media accounts and said he was stepping away from the public light and the "patriot groups" that had gained national attention while supporting the Nevada ranching family. The decision to quit wasn't an easy one, Bundy said, but the movement's unforgiving opposition to the migrant caravan and what he called a dangerous and blinding support of President Trump left him with no choice.

"It's like being in a room full of people in here, trying to teach, and no one is listening," he said. "The vast majority seemed to hang on to what seemed like hate, and fear, and almost warmongering, and I don't want to associate myself with warmongers."

Bundy's sudden exit marks a defining moment in the so-called "patriot movement," one his family helped bolster over the past four years. Members of militia groups would talk about being part of the Bundy standoffs as a point of pride, a sort of street cred for militia.

While Bundy said he supports many of Trump's policies and is grateful for his presidential pardon of the ranchers at the center of the 2016 standoff in Oregon, he disagrees with his depiction of immigrants at the border and his approach to governing.

"I believe President Trump, the best way I could explain it, is that he's a nationalist, and a nationalist in my view makes the decision that best benefits the nation, not the individual," Bundy said. "That is not freedom, and that is not what America was built upon."......
 
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