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**Leafs trade Josh Leivo to Canucks for Michael Carcone**

LeafOfFaith said:
Super original and clever!

The irony is that he scored 30 just like I said he would, and was a good player for us.
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he hit 30 goals once. you called him a perennial 30 goal lock. but nice revisionist history.

for the record, I loved Kulemin for most of his tenure with us. I just objected to your characterization of him as a 30 goal lock.
 
LeafOfFaith said:
Kapanen looks awesome but still has a ways to go before he pots 37. I’m pretty confident now he will too, at some point. But there’s an actual basis for that confidence now.

Nevertheless, you said we should bank on Kapanen and not sign Tavares. That was obviously the only actual shit opinion here. No spin at all.

At the end of the day, was your assumption that Kapanen would for sure be a legit scorer as early as this year validated? Sure looking like it. Did I say you were wrong and that it wouldn’t happen? Not once. Did I only say it was a risk and that we can’t just assume it and not sign JT? Yup. Did you agree? Nope.
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there was also the bonus that we could get JVR off the top PP unit, and make it even better. which has been huge.

We're improved everywhere where JVR was - our 3rd line doesn't have to be sheltered anymore, and our top PP unit is even better now.
 
Wayward DP said:
he hit 30 goals once. you called him a perennial 30 goal lock. but nice revisionist history.

for the record, I loved Kulemin for most of his tenure with us. I just objected to your characterization of him as a 30 goal lock.
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No, sorry, I never said he was a perennial 30 goal lock. What the **** is with you people just making up shit whenever it suits you? Before he scored 30, I said he had 30 goal potential in him. While everyone laughed, he then achieved it. Never did I claim he'd repeat that over and over again throughout his career. I thought he was a good scorer though, yes, and that he could repeat it, but I never made the claim you're alleging.
 
WellPlayed said:
Exactly. You don't develop high skill guys on the 4th line.

I mean if every time a skilled young guy comes up he has to play on the 4th line, wait for an injury, and then wait for a vet to fail as injury replacement before getting a legit shot, that's a loss for us. If you look at Kapanen and how well he has played and say "can't argue with keeping him on the 4th line so long, look how ready he is now" that means Babcock can basically never be wrong for not giving someone a legit shot.
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Or keep them off the pp and things like that. Babcock keeps them on a relatively very short leash. In my view, that has a really negative impact on the players' confidence and the latter is mucho important in terms of performance and further development/adjustment at the NHL level.
 
LeafOfFaith said:
No, sorry, I never said he was a perennial 30 goal lock. What the **** is with you people just making up shit whenever it suits you? Before he scored 30, I said he had 30 goal potential in him. While everyone laughed, he then achieved it. Never did I claim he'd repeat that over and over again throughout his career. I thought he was a good scorer though, yes, and that he could repeat it, but I never made the claim you're alleging.
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heh. big time revisionist history here.

I can do that too and never be wrong, but I prefer to admit my mistakes.

for example, I have definitely expressed doubts about Kappy's potential prior to this season (I thought he may max out as a middle six guy, didn't have the brains to keep up with his legs, wasn't a talented passer). looks like I was wrong. I'm glad I was wrong too.
 
Re: Leafs trade Josh Leivo to Vancouver

I called Kappy, "Michael Grabner with hands". Feel pretty good about that call.
 
leafman101 said:
I don't know. They did it with Marner and Nylander too who are a whole different level than Kappy. I think its part of the plan.

Matthews is the only guy that didn't get that treatment, but he was ready to dominate the second he stepped foot in the league.

Its not like young players are not getting opportunities here. The team is full of young players that have been given opportunities. They have just been getting them later than other teams give them. There is no way any other team would have sent Marner back to junior, or Willy for a 2nd year in the AHL. But the results speak for themselves.
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Exactly. All of the young players, other than Matty, have been brought along the same way. We all sobbed over every time Marner and Nylander were played on the bottom lines, but he was gradually bringing them along. Kapanen isn't even the only example of this on the team right now, as Johnsson is getting the same treatment.

And all of them, to a man, has blossomed. So maybe we should just trust the process, and also give the benefit of the doubt that when some guys move up, it's because they improved and deserved it, and when other guys don't make that improvement, they get dealt to Vancouver.
 
Wayward DP said:
heh. big time revisionist history here.

I can do that too and never be wrong, but I prefer to admit my mistakes.

for example, I have definitely expressed doubts about Kappy's potential prior to this season (I thought he may max out as a middle six guy, didn't have the brains to keep up with his legs, wasn't a talented passer). looks like I was wrong. I'm glad I was wrong too.
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I'm not revising anything. Before Kulemin hit the mark, I said he would do it. Whether he'd be getting 20 or 30 or whatever in years that followed, I never made any claim one way or the other. Of course, I thought he had the ability to do it again, since I thought he'd do it in the first place, but there's no such thing as a lock. Even JVR I never said was a guaranteed 30 goal guy each year, so why would I think that about Kulemin?

I admit things when there's something to actually admit. Mindz said he thought Kapanen would become a top six player this year, and I admit that I didn't go so far as to think that would be the case as early as this year, or even ever. Happy to admit that. I hoped he would, of course, but didn't call it.
 
zeke said:
there was also the bonus that we could get JVR off the top PP unit, and make it even better. which has been huge.

We're improved everywhere where JVR was - our 3rd line doesn't have to be sheltered anymore, and our top PP unit is even better now.
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Because JVR's 11 PP goals, which were second on the team, was a bad thing on the PP?

Maybe the PP is better because Tavares is better than JVR, and Matthews is on it, and all of the kids are one year better?
 
LeafOfFaith said:
Because JVR's 11 PP goals, which were second on the team, was a bad thing on the PP?

Maybe the PP is better because Tavares is better than JVR, and Matthews is on it, and all of the kids are one year better?
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PP1 would have been better stacked with Matthews and Willy last year, too.
 
He had 11 PP goals, second only behind Kadri's 12 PP goals, and 25 ES goals, most on the team (second if Matthews played all year), and he wasn't helping? I hope we can find more players to not help us like he did.

We signed Tavares, who is a better player than JVR. It's not a matter of we just didn't bring him back.
 
LeafOfFaith said:
I'm not revising anything. Before Kulemin hit the mark, I said he would do it. Whether he'd be getting 20 or 30 or whatever in years that followed, I never made any claim one way or the other. Of course, I thought he had the ability to do it again, since I thought he'd do it in the first place, but there's no such thing as a lock. Even JVR I never said was a guaranteed 30 goal guy each year, so why would I think that about Kulemin?

I admit things when there's something to actually admit. Mindz said he thought Kapanen would become a top six player this year, and I admit that I didn't go so far as to think that would be the case as early as this year, or even ever. Happy to admit that. I hoped he would, of course, but didn't call it.
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you also frequently described JVR as a lock for 30 goals... but anyways, moving on, Kapanen's emergence is awesome, yes.
 
There’s a difference between calling a player a 30 goal guy in passing because he’s done it once and could presumably do it again, and predicting that that player is going to hit the 30 goal mark every year.
 
Even Strength

Leivo: 4gms, 12:42 (A qoc), 3.54p/60 (3.54p1), 54.8cf% (+11.2), 70.8xgf% (+26.4rel)

Dammit, Babcock.
 
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