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OT: Post Corona - What Will Change?

LeafOfFaith said:
So what's the incentive for those on the lower end to work much or at all?

Just that you still need more than that to stay afloat?
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Mindz will have a better response but in studies where they've experimented with UBI, it leads to a higher quality of life rather than creating lazy people. I know I'd still work, I'd just be happier with a bit more money to spend on health, vacations or my retirement.
 
The notion is that everyone making under say $100k gets free money like that, whether they are employed or not?

So if you're making $99k, you would get an extra free grant of $20k?
 
Man, I hate giving out free money. This is such a hard thing to sort out re: UBI. I hate the freeloaders but understand that there are some people who legit have problems getting a job for money. Is there a way you could have some sort of guaranteed jobs that people could do to earn this UBI instead?
 
There are definitely people who will "game" the system, but how is that much different from what's been going on already? It sounds counterintuitive but from what I've seen (and admittedly haven't done that much research on the subject), the pros outweigh the cons.

You largely eliminate homelessness and the massive amount of stress and anxiety caused by the struggle to pay for basic necessities, which leads to all kinds of health problems and places strain on the medical system. Plus save money phasing out the many social programs already in place like welfare. There are so many benefits, it is going to happen someday.
 
I do think it’ll happen someday as well. It can be done by eliminating other programs that would become unnecessary anyway.
 
Yeah it's not perfect but there's a decent chance that it's a better system in the end.
 
Also, a lot of crime is pure survival. If you give people at least a minimal income you'd probably see a drop there as well. In Northern Europe the crime rate is super low compared to other countries without much of a safety net.
 
I do agree that the UBI idea would be better than what we run currently but to be honest that’s not very difficult. I would just like to stop the people that are working the system from having a lot of free time for things that are a detriment to society including petty crimes.
 
LeafOfFaith said:
So what's the incentive for those on the lower end to work much or at all?

Just that you still may need more than that to stay afloat?
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Well the easy answer is that people in poverty generally dont want to be in poverty. If given the opportunity to make 2k a month working while getting a 2k benefit, the vast, vast majority will take it.
 
Deckie007 said:
Also, a lot of crime is pure survival. If you give people at least a minimal income you'd probably see a drop there as well. In Northern Europe the crime rate is super low compared to other countries without much of a safety net.
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This guy gets it.

Poverty is the largest variable driver of government expense. High poverty increase the costs of the justice system, health care system, etc.

By a lot.
 
Neurospasm said:
I do agree that the UBI idea would be better than what we run currently but to be honest that’s not very difficult. I would just like to stop the people that are working the system from having a lot of free time for things that are a detriment to society including petty crimes.
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I honestly don't think that's how it would work. Raising peoples standard of living that really need it should be the goal of any progressive society really. Why do we let rich people and corporations game the tax system but are not okay with someone at the poverty level getting a little something to raise them up and be less miserable?
 
Neurospasm said:
Man, I hate giving out free money.
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Except it's not free. Think of as applying the money you were going to spend on that person anyway, in the way that does the most good instead of waiting to spend it on bad shit. Those people were going to cost "the system" money regardless. Whether it was through increased criminality (almost all crime is economic in motivation, and it's 75K a year to house an inmate in Canada), poor health (the impoverished cost significantly more per person in health care costs than even middle income earners...) or passing off poverty to their children (14% of canadian kids are raised in poverty...50% of first nations kids are)

This is such a hard thing to sort out re: UBI. I hate the freeloaders but understand that there are some people who legit have problems getting a job for money. Is there a way you could have some sort of guaranteed jobs that people could do to earn this UBI instead?
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Why would you force them into low skill "guaranteed jobs" rather than direct them towards value added education options? The real beauty in UBI is that it acts as a societal floor for anyone who wants to better themselves. Stuck in a dead end job? Go back to school, you don't have to worry about starving. Want to start a business? You don't have to worry about starving. The minimum benefits that I mentioned above (significantly improved crime and healthcare outcomes, thus significant reductions in specific program spending at all levels) pale in comparison to the explosion in small business starts it would create. Small business is economic crystal meth. It's the real driver of middle class prosperity when you dig into the economic data, not factory and other low skill manufacturing/industrial work that the "China took our jerrrrbs" crowd want you to believe. UBI (coupled with socialized health care that we already have) would support small business growth in a way we haven't seen since the 50's.
 
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Over the last 40 years, unions were gutted, we demanded flexible labour markets, PSE has become increasingly expensive, a massive technological shock has brought in robotics and insecure gig jobs and low end manufacturing was shipped overseas with the emergence of China, literally an unprecedented normalization of over a billion people in the global economy.

And yet we see UBI through a prism of Calvanist morality and “mooching”? This is not a f@cking morality play. This is a risk management play driven by very impersonal and massive technological and demographic forces (and now pathogens) that well beyond the control of anyone, including the mighty Jeff Bezos and Dotard.

People screamed about moral hazard with public health insurance, it will lead to unhealthy choices, blah blah blah. Well, the opposite is true. And it’s rather condescending to assume people are rationally reckless of lazy for rationale - UBI won’t change the fact that most people want a nice house, to go on vacations and have a secure retirement. Those will always require personal success and achievement.

UBI is income insurance in an increasingly uncertain world in which waaaay to much risk has been passed on too individual households. It’s no different that single payer health care, which might explain why the US, which has a political culture that has been poisoned by extreme evangelical fundamentalism, will likely be the last advanced democracy to take this seriously.
 
Other areas to think about. Think of the parasitic businesses out there like payday loans. If you know there is a floor if you lose your job or have a huge unexpected expense, you won't get stuck in that awful cycle that is nearly impossible to get out of. I do wonder what UBI would do to the job market itself. You'd probably have to actually give (non unionized) employees proper raises, because you could leave a job if it wasn't paying enough for your talents and not worry about surviving. It would give you stronger bargaining position for vacations, days off, parental leave, etc. This isn't just about the dregs of society, it would improve everyone's life.
 
Neurospasm said:
I do agree that the UBI idea would be better than what we run currently but to be honest that’s not very difficult. I would just like to stop the people that are working the system from having a lot of free time for things that are a detriment to society including petty crimes.
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There would be no system to work...have a social insurance number and file your taxes from the previous year? Here's your benefit based on your income level. That's one of the beauties of it all. I mean sure you can be a high earner and commit tax fraud to try to get your benefit, but I hardly think the juice is worth the squeeze there. On the bottom end there's no "system" to game. If you're poor, here's money. I'm sure there would be edges to be nibbled around (not reporting a dead loved one, for example), but it would hardly be a key issue.

To give you an idea how pervasive (or not) that problem is...in 2017 there were about 1000 Ontario works fraud cases that were investigated and the recipient was found to be guilty and had their benefits removed.

Even that doesn't tell the story though. The most common reasons for the investigations being opened:

- Having more than 2500 in your bank account (which makes you ineligible)
- Having a job and not reporting it (your work income is on a 2:1 ratio from your benefits...if we're talking about an incentive to not bother working and all)


Seriously...that's it. Benefits "fraud" in the way we think of fraud barely exists. Benefits fraud is almost entirely some poor bastard working a minimum wage job and trying to go as long as possible without telling the government.
 
Deckie007 said:
Other areas to think about. Think of the parasitic businesses out there like payday loans. If you know there is a floor if you lose your job or have a huge unexpected expense, you won't get stuck in that awful cycle that is nearly impossible to get out of. I do wonder what UBI would do to the job market itself. You'd probably have to actually give (non unionized) employees proper raises, because you could leave a job if it wasn't paying enough for your talents and not worry about surviving. It would give you stronger bargaining position for vacations, days off, parental leave, etc. This isn't just about the dregs of society, it would improve everyone's life.
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I think working conditions for minimum wage employees would improve. I still remember how shit I was treated in my late teens/early 20's. Switching shifts without proper notice (don't like it? Quit). Boss is a complete cunt (ditto...quit), work your dick off for months with no raise? Same answer right?

Way easier to tell bad companies/bosses to stick it up their ass and go looking for something else. Shitty working conditions are a major driver of mental health issues.
 
I mean you guys make really good points. I guess my perception of what is happening at the bottom is what makes my opinion different. Granted I have done no research on the topic and am only able to use my limited experience with those “stuck in the dregs”.

I have only personally dealt with the “I don’t want to work” or the “Any money I do make is going to drugs”crowds. If there is indeed as many potential self made business gurus waiting for their opportunity then for sure I can see your point.
 
I have only personally dealt with the “I don’t want to work” or the “Any money I do make is going to drugs”crowds. If there is indeed as many potential self made business gurus waiting for their opportunity then for sure I can see your point.
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With all due respect man, anecdotes are a bad way to view the world. It's how we come to believe that welfare fraud is a thing worth raging over, and that welfare queens are a thing worth worrying about.

We know the effects of poverty on society. If we're too busy looking down our noses at those we feel better than, we're going to miss an opportunity to improve society for everyone. In a UBI scheme, are benefits going to end up going to someone who is able bodied and just doesn't want to work? Sure. But we know through observation that guy is really, really likely to find the motivation to commit crime when he gets hungry. Spend 24K a year housing him now and keeping him lazy (with the possibility that he sorts himself out at some point), or 75K a year (plus the pile of other societial costs of crime) for housing him later?

You're paying for him either way.
 
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