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Around The League: 2016-17 Playoffs

i don't believe a mediocre AHL coach can ruin real hard working talent. Sounds like facile scapegoating to me.
 
Altair said:
I don't think it's drafting as much as it is development.

It's not like they are going crazy off the board with their picks, it's just the second they are in our system they stagnate.

Most of our best draft picks are guys who have managed to avoid timeline the AHL
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To play devil's advocate, there wasn't many can't miss prospects that went to the AHL and got ruined by Sly either. But he hasn't really developed anyone either.
 
People construct narratives to make sense of random and/or complicated outcomes
 
GrandWazoo said:
To play devil's advocate, there wasn't many can't miss prospects that went to the AHL and got ruined by Sly either. But he hasn't really developed anyone either.
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Okay, maybe they aren't can't miss guys. But here's the thing

If you send 15 guys to the AHL over the last 5 years, and all have like a 20% chance of making an impact in the NHL.... and none do. Then you have to look at the development. Its statistically improbable not to get an impact player out of all the guys who have spent time with Sly.

Our only impact guys who are home grown came up before sly, played very few games there (Gallagher) or avoided him altogether (Lehkonen, Galchenyuk).

Guys who played there... Tinordi, Beaulieu, McCarron, De la Rose, Ellis, Dietz, Naatinen, Thomas, Friberg, etc.... none are hitting. And sure none are sure fire guys, but how is no one hitting.

How is Hudon a very good defensive player in the QMJHL... put in a penalty kill, checking line role for Team Canada at 2 WJCs, and then he gets to the AHL and he can't make the NHL cause his defensive game doesn't progress at all and now he's weak defensively?
 
Ben, you don't have to convince me. He might not have had too many horses to work with but the end result could not have been any worse. Any other coach should have been able to produce a few useful players out of the lot he had.
 
Habs4Life said:
A few things.

Just because you have elite goaltending.... it shouldn't mean you rely on it. This management group goes out of their way to add 3/4th liners as if their top 6 is "good ENOUGH" to win with Price. It is a defeatist approach. With elite level goaltending the Habs should be taking chances with high end talent that might have defensive deficiencies knowing they have a security blanket in Price. Instead they look for no talent mistake free plugs to insulate an already strong asset. As a result.... you get what we got, a team that struggles to score consistently.

The frustrating thing for me, and others I am sure, is that an unlikely MONUMENTAL managerial mindset is required:
-Trades shouldn't be hard
-Get help down the damn middle
-Stop handing large contracts out to 3/4th liners - that is where you need to UNDERPAY players
-Insulate talent, don't restrict it
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Excellent post , the Pens are among a few teams that can get away without elite goaltending or this year a mish mash D with Letang out.

They have an elite top 9 with playmakers and finishers and can be out-corsied to death and still win .
 
BKerr said:
Okay, maybe they aren't can't miss guys. But here's the thing

If you send 15 guys to the AHL over the last 5 years, and all have like a 20% chance of making an impact in the NHL.... and none do. Then you have to look at the development. Its statistically improbable not to get an impact player out of all the guys who have spent time with Sly.

Our only impact guys who are home grown came up before sly, played very few games there (Gallagher) or avoided him altogether (Lehkonen, Galchenyuk).

Guys who played there... Tinordi, Beaulieu, McCarron, De la Rose, Ellis, Dietz, Naatinen, Thomas, Friberg, etc.... none are hitting. And sure none are sure fire guys, but how is no one hitting.

How is Hudon a very good defensive player in the QMJHL... put in a penalty kill, checking line role for Team Canada at 2 WJCs, and then he gets to the AHL and he can't make the NHL cause his defensive game doesn't progress at all and now he's weak defensively?
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Great post , I cant understand why a JDL who looked fine as a bottom 6 defensively in his brief call up regresses going back down . He was played in his projected role but at least improved up his game in the second half of the season.
 
CH1 said:
i don't believe a mediocre AHL coach can ruin real hard working talent. Sounds like facile scapegoating to me.
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He can't ruin a sure thing but a good coach can polish a rough talent into a good player. Sly hasn't been able to produce anything.
 
Sal_Butera said:
I have yet to see any of these polish able turds turn into diamonds elsewhere
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Yeah cause if you don't develop between the ages of 18-23, you likely aren't going to turn into a diamond after that.

Those are the prime development years. Yes there are exceptions that develop later, but most guys have to be developped in their prime years.

Don Lever, Guy Boucher, and Randy Cunneyworth were all developing talent drafted by the same group of scouts (more or less)... now there isn't development happening or is our explanation that the scouting department just forgot how to do the job too, and Lefebvre has nothing to work with?
 
BKerr said:
Yeah cause if you don't develop between the ages of 18-23, you likely aren't going to turn into a diamond after that.

Those are the prime development years. Yes there are exceptions that develop later, but most guys have to be developped in their prime years.

Don Lever, Guy Boucher, and Randy Cunneyworth were all developing talent drafted by the same group of scouts (more or less)... now there isn't development happening or is our explanation that the scouting department just forgot how to do the job too, and Lefebvre has nothing to work with?
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Good coaches (HOF coaches) get fired because after time it just doesn't work anymore, not because they forgot coaching, same for GMs, why would it be different for scouts?
 
Coaches get fired because the players tire of the message or the messenger.

Those coaches go to a new city with new players and are suddenly good coaches again.

There isn't the same problem in interaction with scouts. Its not losing the room

That said, if your opinion is scouting is screwed up Too... thats a legit debate, i disagree, but its a legit debate.

The idea that Sly is doing something worthwhile though, I completely disagree on.

I can see getting rid of both. I can't see the logic in changing the scouts but keeping sly on board.
 
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My only point as CH stated earlier I highly doubt Sly has the incredible superpowers of taking a player with drive & determination and make them loose those abilities.
There aren't more Habs prospects from the AHL making the big team because scouting from 2008 has been putrid.
 
Players who end up in the AHL, are players who have raw skills and need to have those skills refined. He's shown no ability to do so.

Its not about losing ability, its about not building it up more.
 
It's pure conjecture to think a different AHL coach would have helped the Habs young ones.

It's far more likely that most AHL coaches get their cue from the big club and preach more or less the same philosophy shared by most NHL teams. Hockey is more of a copycat than innovative industry. No squad possesses the "secret sauce". Coaches at either extreme (great or pure crap) tend to get promoted or fired.

There is no team that is the Google, Amazon or Apple of the NHL.
 
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Is it conjecture that another coach would do better? sure. We haven't seen anyone else, so who knows.

However, another coach can't do worse. You can't be worse than developing 0 impact players in 5 years.
 
Will you change your mind if Hudon and Nikita contribute to the squad in the coming years?
 
CH1 said:
Will you change your mind if Hudon and Nikita contribute to the squad in the coming years?
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Lets see where it goes. 1 impact player in 6 years would be better yes. 2 would be close to an acceptable number. I still don't think its quite there, but it would be better.

You need to be at least at 1 every other year IMO. The average NHL team gets 1.8 players per draft class (play 200 games). So taking into account some of those won't be "impact guys" and some of those will never go to the AHL, I would think that getting 0.5 per year would be at least the bare minimum you want from a coach. Below that you have to look at what is happening in development.
 
CH1 said:
It's pure conjecture to think a different AHL coach would have helped the Habs young ones.

It's far more likely that most AHL coaches get their cue from the big club and preach more or less the same philosophy shared by most NHL teams. Hockey is more of a copycat than innovative industry. No squad possesses the "secret sauce". Coaches at either extreme (great or pure crap) tend to get promoted or fired.

There is no team that is the Google, Amazon or Apple of the NHL.
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Ironically, I think San Jose is one of the best team at drafting and developing players. And I actually don't think it's a coincidence.

Yes it's pure conjecture to think a different AHL coach would have had different results but the point is, it can't get any worse. The guy have literraly developed no NHL players in about 5 years and made the playoffs only once, barely. Guys that looked about NHL ready actually regressed under him. I could name you coach and you couldn't do any worse.
 
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