• Moderators, please send me a PM if you are unable to access mod permissions. Thanks, Habsy.

Hamilton Bulldogs 2013-2014

BKerr said:
Well we took an unskilled 6'5 guy in the first round over a number of skilled guys who are 6'1 to 6'3
Click to expand...

Hold on there...

Between Mac and de la rose/Fucale our 34th and 36th picks, the following players were selected. Let's look at the size of the forwards drafted, assuming we would not target a dman in that slot once Morin was selected. Also note my source is hockey DB website.

26 Theodore dman x
27 Dano 5 11 183
28 Klimchuk 5 11 180
29 Dickinson 6 1 179
30 Hartman 5 11 181
31 Mcoshen dman x
32 Bigras dman x
33 Erne 6 1 210
35 Compher 5 11 184

So between the picks, Mac and de la rose and Fucale, show me where we lost out on all these skilled forwards between 6 1 and 6 3? If you wanted a dman sure, there were a few big ones there but then we would crap on MB for picking a defenceman.

In the end we actually still ended up with one of the biggest guys available, de la rose. I think you'll say anything to back your hate for Mac.

Now I hope you're not going to repeat how 5 11 is only a few inches away from 6 1 and 6 1 is only a few inches from 6 3. That one is a classic.
 
Last edited:
GrandWazoo said:
Erne is the only one I could think about when he said that.
Click to expand...

Forwards over 6'0 Who I had ranked ahead of McCarron and were available at 25

Erne, De la Rose, Zykov, Dickinson, Bailey, Dauphin, Carrier, Fasching, Slepyshev, Hurley, Poirier, Buchnevich,

Thats 12 guys... and all of whom have far eclipsed what McCarron has done this season.
 
BKerr said:
Crisp, de la Rose, Gregoire are also not small.

Galchenyuk, Bozon, Vail, in 2012 draft.


Overall MB has drafted 7 forwards 6'0 or bigger in two drafts.
Click to expand...

GGpx said that MB drafted only 2 big skilled forwards, Galchenyuk and Bozon. Do you disagree with that? I think personally I would include De La Rose in that group. Then I was wondering if we missed some skilled big guys in the draft.
 
BKerr said:
Forwards over 6'0 Who I had ranked ahead of McCarron and were available at 25

Erne, De la Rose, Zykov, Dickinson, Bailey, Dauphin, Carrier, Fasching, Slepyshev, Hurley, Poirier, Buchnevich,

Thats 12 guys... and all of whom have far eclipsed what McCarron has done this season.
Click to expand...

Well you ranked him pretty low, some of the guys you mentioned were drafted in the 4th round. And your notion of big is different of mine, you list guys that are 6'0, 170lbs, that's Louis Leblanc size, that's not big. And how skilled are those guys? Top 6 material? None of those seems to be burning the league this year. The fact that they're doing better than Mac this year doesn't mean much to me. Have we missed out on some potential big skilled top 6 players is really what I'm asking for. From that list I can see a case to be made for maybe Zykov and Erne. The rest not so much.
 
GrandWazoo said:
GGpx said that MB drafted only 2 big skilled forwards, Galchenyuk and Bozon. Do you disagree with that? I think personally I would include De La Rose in that group. Then I was wondering if we missed some skilled big guys in the draft.
Click to expand...

I'd include De la Rose as well.

Vail, Gregoire, Crisp, look like bottom line types going forward.

But the thing is, by the time you get to rounds 3, 4, 5 and further down the line... the Big & Skilled guys are gone. Small and skilled, or big with limited upsides seems to be where you are at that point (ie Vail, Gregoire) or massive problems in other parts of their game (Avtsin, Pribyl). So I don't know how many we've "missed out on".

The only pick that I take big issue with was the McCarron one. The others you can see what they were thinking on.
 
GrandWazoo said:
Well you ranked him pretty low, some of the guys you mentioned were drafted in the 4th round. And your notion of big is different of mine, you list guys that are 6'0, 170lbs, that's Louis Leblanc size, that's not big. And how skilled are those guys? Top 6 material? None of those seems to be burning the league this year. The fact that they're doing better than Mac this year doesn't mean much to me. Have we missed out on some potential big skilled top 6 players is really what I'm asking for. From that list I can see a case to be made for maybe Zykov and Erne. The rest not so much.
Click to expand...

In terms of height, we keep calling Pacioretty Big.... he is 6'1.

In terms of weight, the vast, vast majority of 18 year old hockey players are skinny and need to add muscle. The guys who are McCarron's 250 lbs are very rare. They may be 170 now, but thats not where they will be in 2-3 years.


Poirier, Erne and Zykov are all putting up great numbers.

Fasching is having a very, very good freshman year at Minnesota and made the WJC team. He never should have fallen where he did in round 4. I wasn't the only person who had him ranked much higher than that.

Dickinson is just a little below the magic 1.2 mark. 60 in 53.

Dauphin is over a PPG.

Slepyshev and Buchnevich are both playing in the KHL and were great at the WJC scoring 7 points each in 7 games.
 
BKerr said:
I'd include De la Rose as well.

Vail, Gregoire, Crisp, look like bottom line types going forward.

But the thing is, by the time you get to rounds 3, 4, 5 and further down the line... the Big & Skilled guys are gone. Small and skilled, or big with limited upsides seems to be where you are at that point (ie Vail, Gregoire) or massive problems in other parts of their game (Avtsin, Pribyl). So I don't know how many we've "missed out on".

The only pick that I take big issue with was the McCarron one. The others you can see what they were thinking on.
Click to expand...

Yeah that's my thinking as well, it's easy to say that we only drafted 3 big skilled players in the last 2 drafts but those guys are generally gone in the top 2 rounds. I don't like the MacCarron pick either but so far I don't see many obvious ones that we missed for him.
 
BKerr said:
In terms of height, we keep calling Pacioretty Big.... he is 6'1.

In terms of weight, the vast, vast majority of 18 year old hockey players are skinny and need to add muscle. The guys who are McCarron's 250 lbs are very rare. They may be 170 now, but thats not where they will be in 2-3 years.


Poirier, Erne and Zykov are all putting up great numbers.

Fasching is having a very, very good freshman year at Minnesota and made the WJC team. He never should have fallen where he did in round 4. I wasn't the only person who had him ranked much higher than that.

Dickinson is just a little below the magic 1.2 mark. 60 in 53.

Dauphin is over a PPG.

Slepyshev and Buchnevich are both playing in the KHL and were great at the WJC scoring 7 points each in 7 games.
Click to expand...

For me, to be considered "big", they have to be around 6'1 or above and 190 lbs and above. The frame is important. A 6'1 170lbs player at the draft will never become a 6'1 220lbs, he'll be around 185-190lbs. That's why I consider Zykov and Erne who are both 210lbs but not Hurley, who's 6'1 174lbs. Dickinson at 180lbs is not really big either, more like Plekanec.

Barely over PPG in the Q doesn't impress me. That's not top 6 material.

MaxPac is 6'2 220lbs, that's big.

Poirier was drafted before us. Unless you meant Carrier.

Slepyshev and Buchnevich are Russian, I would ignore them, too much risk. Only the best ones come over.
 
I've seen kids who are 170 at 17 on draft day, go to 210 by the time they are 24 or 25.

Frame is important, but you have to judge frame by looking at the kid. Could Dickinson fill out to 210? I think he could if he works at it and wants to.

Part of it is that some of these kids have their growth spurts earlier or later.... a kid who had the growth spurt at 14 or 15 might have had time to add the weight, a kid who had the spurt at 16 or 17, will be skinnier as he's had less time to pack on muscle (and its hard to put on muscle during the season, more of an off-season thing to gain weight).

As for the scoring in the Q.... its not the same as it used to be. The highest scoring league is now the WHL, not the Q... so being over a PPG in the Q is a lot more impressive than it was 15 years ago. The Q still gets this reputation that its so easy to score in that league, but its really not the case.

As for Russians, fair enough, each team is going to assess the risk on them differently. And we haven't seen many russians taken post Avtsin, and haven't seen MB take any yet, so I don't know what his feelings are, but I can see the argument that he sees them as risky.
 
For sure you have to judge by looking at the kid, but I don't have that luxury so I look at their bio. My rule of thumb is that I give them an extra 20 lbs to forecast their NHL weight. The heavier ones tends to gain less weight are they convert their body fat into muscle so guys like Erne and Zykov will probably hover around 215-220 in their possible NHL careers.

As for the Q, I agree and I have noticed that and while being a PPG player is more impressive than it was 15 years ago, I'm still not convinced it translate into a top 6 player in the NHL. That bar is pretty high.
 
Last edited:
I dont think the Habs had any intention of taking Zykov in round 1 due to the KHL factor which clearly factors at draft time

but Dallas at 10 may have nabbed one of the top power forwards in this league in 3 years in Nichushkin if all things go well

I believe there was a report floating around draft time that Erne wasnt interested in playing for the Habs or the Habs didnt rate him highly ...... but cant remember the source
 
GrandWazoo said:
Erne had some character issues which pretty much ruled him out for us.
Click to expand...

And my guess is that Nygren, ditching his teammates in the Hammer and then talking about them to the Swedish press (saying that some of them were more interested in the puck bunnies after the game than how they played) is going to get the Danny Kristo treatment from MB, who as we all know, values "character" very highly - maybe a bit too highly.
 
If McCarron is so bad, how come he was ranked 35th overall by ISS?? Considering who we could have had, taking a chance on a guy his size with, granted, very raw skills was worth it I think. Personally I'll be happy if he can score 10 to 15 goals and play a regular shift on the 3rd line. His size and meaness are intangibles that you can't measure in terms of stats. Give him a few years and then we'll see, he's still only 18...
 
budman89 said:
If McCarron is so bad, how come he was ranked 35th overall by ISS?? Considering who we could have had, taking a chance on a guy his size with, granted, very raw skills was worth it I think. Personally I'll be happy if he can score 10 to 15 goals and play a regular shift on the 3rd line. His size and meaness are intangibles that you can't measure in terms of stats. Give him a few years and then we'll see, he's still only 18...
Click to expand...

Kerr has already decided . . . before the draft.
 
Why was he ranked high? Because this happens every year... whether its Tom Wilson, or Mitch Moroz, or Stuart Biggs, or whoever.... some big guy who can skate a little gets taken way too high for what they do.

As for scoring 10-15 goals and being a regular on the third line.... you should probably go through the thread. The fact is that almost all players who make the NHL out of the CHL are scorers at the age of 18, not under 0.5 Points per game as McCarron now sits (8 goals, 15 assists, 23 points in 51 games). So yes, Stats do Matter here... there is an extremely short list of players who become contributors at the NHL level, but could not score in the CHL in their post draft years.

Remember that Guys like Ryan White, and Max Lapierre, and heck even Nick Kypreos, were pretty good scorers in junior hockey.

McCarron didn't score in his two years with the US NTDP, he isn't scoring now in London, but at some point he's gonna score 15 in the NHL?

He has 42 goals in his last 229 games in Junior hockey.... 8 in 51 in the CHL... but somehow he's gonna score 15 in the NHL?
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top