• Moderators, please send me a PM if you are unable to access mod permissions. Thanks, Habsy.

Les Habitants Prospects Thread

No. Do YOU trade your first round pick for Sam Gagner?

Value, man. Value. Read my post. Good night.
Yes.

The oilers were hoping sam gagner would be a first liner when he was drafted.

Here we are one year later hoping McCarron can be a third liner.

Guys who dont score in junior dont become top 6 players (with very... very few exceptions). Hell its rare they become nhlers at all.
 
I think players with extreme qualities are more valuable than all-around good qualities. The fastest skater, the quickest release or the hardest shot are all payers extremely valuable to their teams because they give a coach a lot of versatility in terms of how to deploy their lines. This logic applies to size as well.

Mike McCarron, if he pans out, will be one of the biggest forwards in the entire NHL. How many teams can effectively counter his size and not lose in the match-up? For example : the arguably biggest defenceman on the Blue Jackets is Fedor Tyutin at 6"2 and 217 pounds. On the Leafs, it's Phaneuf at 6"3 and 213 pounds (assuming Franson is gone). How many positioning battles in the crease are they going to win against a 6"6 240 pounds McCarron? What if they are out of the game, in the box or on the bench?

Obviously high-end skill trumps high-end size but these huge physical specimens are very hard to find in general. How many 6"6 people in the entire Canadian & American population? How many play hockey? How many are available to be drafted in the later rounds of an NHL draft?

I like the Connor Crips pick. I think it's positive that we should spend more than 1 pick to draft a big forward to protect against a high risk of bust (which is true for all prospects regardless of size). And if more than one pans out, all the better. We can use as many big bodies as we can get our hands on. With this being said, Crisp is not exactly an offensive wizard, he is 3-4" shorter than McCarron and we still had to use a third rounder to draft him.

In contrast, how many skilled under-sized forwards slip under the radar and are available to be drafted as late as 5th round? How many go undrafted all together because, as skilled as they may be, GM's simply don't think they can be effective at the NHL level? Remember that Gallagher, Kostitsyn, Grabovski and even Andrei Markov all went in the 5th round or later in their respective drafts and guys like Desharnais and most recently, Sekac, were picked up for absolutely free.

Mike Ribeiro and Derek Roy both signed for near a league minimum this week. Both produced over 1.5PPG in juniors and even over 1PPG at the NHL LEVEL. How many skilled forwards can be picked up for cheap via free agency?

For every Shawn Thornton and the prototypical grit player having troubles finding work in the NHL level, there is a highly-skilled smallish underachiever equally unemployed. I would sign them all but thank you - we have enough under-sized forwards on the team as it is.

I digress but I love grinders like Bournival because though he might not score a lot, and he is not big at all, the guy hustles at every shift and is very effective in the areas where your skilled forwards aren't. I want guys like that on my team. In fact, I would sooner have Bournival than Sam Gagner because the former can tire the opposition and create opportunities for my star forwards, which Gagner cannot do. Bournival, by the way, had a very unspectacular post-draft year season with 64 points in a very weak CHL league. He was a beast in the playoffs however, as I watched his team take the powerful Remparts to a 7-game series.

Where was I again? Ah yes, not all points are created equally.

The idea that you exclusively draft for high end talent in the first rounds is simplistic at best, for one because you force the assumption that talent is ultimately what matters, which I have shown--though I don't pretend this is anything but common knowledge among NHL followers--as incorrect. There is a reason that draft order is not determined by point production in juniors but rather by desirability of the player by NHL scouts, which is in turn determined by how much value the player is projected to bring. Bob McKenzie makes a lot of money doing nothing but compiling opinions of scouts and hockey-professionals and he is usually very accurate because when you sum them all together, you get a good idea of how valuable is a player relative to his peers.

So how valuable is McCarron? At least the 25th most valuable player in the 2013 draft year, unless you think that Timmins, after a long year of homework, suddenly made a mistake.

Now, we could have drafted for skill in that same position and I am almost sure that the skilled forward would have had more points than the meagre 34 points McCarron had in London, which in hindsight, I will admit, is a very disappointing season from your first round selection. Would a guy with say, 70 points had been more likely to crack an NHL line up?

Or would he have been just another highly-offensive player who is good enough to rack up points in juniors but not good enough to play in the Top6 in the NHL? Would he have any redeemable qualities outside his scoring prowess, which as good as it may be, it's probably not good enough to face off against Crosby and Toews in a battle of pure skill?

Maybe in the absence of a TRUE high-end talent which dominates all over the ice, we can find specialists highly successful in other areas of the game such as along the boards, in front of the crease, behind the net etc... ? These guys will never replace the star power which any serious contender must have, but it sure gives us a little bit of depth on the roster to ACQUIRE that star power via free agency or trade. Not very likely, you will say, but neither is drafting the next Giroux.

Now, what if we drafted the best specialist before another team snatched him in the later round, presumably because they are all, as expected, exclusively fishing for high-end talent in the first rounds and are leaving the grinders to be selected in the later rounds? What if we took the biggest, brawniest guy in the draft with the 25th selection just to make sure we have the best special weapons for when the game turns into a war of attrition?

How valuable (note the emphasis) is it to us to win the war of attrition against long-standing rivals like Boston, Toronto and maybe Ottawa?

Or should we stockpile talent on top of talent and prey that ONE of the prospects turns out to be slightly better than the Desharnais and Plekanec, who we already have on the roster, or better than guys like Gagner and Ribeiro who we could have acquired at a bargain?

And I am going to end my thoughts here.
Forgive my typos as it's very late and I do not intend to format the post any further. Thank you for reading.

Long but very good post. I agree with most of your points here.
 
Yes.

The oilers were hoping sam gagner would be a first liner when he was drafted.

Here we are one year later hoping McCarron can be a third liner.

Guys who dont score in junior dont become top 6 players (with very... very few exceptions). Hell its rare they become nhlers at all.
You're very few exceptions tended to be undrafted players too. Clarkson is one and even he couldn't sustain it.
 
Yes.

The oilers were hoping sam gagner would be a first liner when he was drafted.

Here we are one year later hoping McCarron can be a third liner.

Guys who dont score in junior dont become top 6 players (with very... very few exceptions). Hell its rare they become nhlers at all.

I still think the habs overeacted to that sens series. Thought we had to be big and dumb to go far.

Timmins does have a history of going for the extreme long shot though. This....like that last time he did it (Fischer) didnt pan out.
 
Now, what if we drafted the best specialist before another team snatched him in the later round, presumably because they are all, as expected, exclusively fishing for high-end talent in the first rounds and are leaving the grinders to be selected in the later rounds? What if we took the biggest, brawniest guy in the draft with the 25th selection just to make sure we have the best special weapons for when the game turns into a war of attrition?

How valuable (note the emphasis) is it to us to win the war of attrition against long-standing rivals like Boston, Toronto and maybe Ottawa?

If there ever were an example of "Don't Do What Donny Don't Does", it's the Leafs at the draft table. Don't worry about the Leafs taking big, brawny players in the draft. In fact, do the opposite of worry. Take skilled players (not necessarily small players - size does have its advantages but size with no skill doesn't matter) and enjoy watching the teams who simply take the biggest and brawniest worry more about being big and brawny than actually playing hockey.
 
Also, even most of the league's 3rd liners and many 4th liners had good junior production. I've shown that here many times when asked with numbers.
 
Also, even most of the league's 3rd liners and many 4th liners had good junior production. I've shown that here many times when asked with numbers.

Yup, here's the thing

There are 30 NHL teams.... and NHL careers are longer than junior careers.

There are ~60 Junior Teams feeding those NHL teams in the CHL Alone... add in the kids who go the USNTDP, USHL, USHS and college route.... add in the Euros....

And suddenly its pretty easy to see that you are funneling a large number of players into those 30 teams. You better be at minimum a 2nd liner on your junior team to make it to the NHL (in most cases).
 
If there ever were an example of "Don't Do What Donny Don't Does", it's the Leafs at the draft table. Don't worry about the Leafs taking big, brawny players in the draft. In fact, do the opposite of worry. Take skilled players (not necessarily small players - size does have its advantages but size with no skill doesn't matter) and enjoy watching the teams who simply take the biggest and brawniest worry more about being big and brawny than actually playing hockey.

I don't want to copy Toronto at the draft table. What the hell?

I said I want to have better weapons for the war of attrition that inevitably happens on the ice between the two teams. I want to hit you harder than you hit us. I want you bruised more than we are bruised.

We don't want to play like thugs because that's not the style of Montreal Canadiens, but remember that we will run over your goalie if you run over ours.
 
I don't want to copy Toronto at the draft table. What the hell?

I said I want to have better weapons for the war of attrition that inevitably happens on the ice between the two teams. I want to hit you harder than you hit us. I want you bruised more than we are bruised.

We don't want to play like thugs because that's not the style of Montreal Canadiens, but remember that we will run over your goalie if you run over ours.

Should have kept Gionta.
 
I don't want to copy Toronto at the draft table. What the hell?

I said I want to have better weapons for the war of attrition that inevitably happens on the ice between the two teams. I want to hit you harder than you hit us. I want you bruised more than we are bruised.

We don't want to play like thugs because that's not the style of Montreal Canadiens, but remember that we will run over your goalie if you run over ours.

That was her point. The Leafs draft for size and truculence and look what it's done for them.
 
Personally I want to score more goals than the other team.

Now onto the point about signing cheap scrubs like ribeiro... gagner... roy. Yes you can sign these guys for cheap but they arent very good. I want to use our first riund picks to try and get players better than that. Swing for the fences and get another paciorety... or a corey perry.. or getzlaf....or kuznetsov or coyle or oreilly or giroux or one of any number of quality players taken late in the first round.

Yeah sometimes youll get a bust. And sometimes youll get a guy like a derek roy. But sometimes you get that impact guy.

Going for third liners you have so much less margin for error... and the true top liners never reach free agency and are rarely traded... but that isnt true with third liners
 
Personally I want to score more goals than the other team.

Now onto the point about signing cheap scrubs like ribeiro... gagner... roy. Yes you can sign these guys for cheap but they arent very good. I want to use our first riund picks to try and get players better than that. Swing for the fences and get another paciorety... or a corey perry.. or getzlaf....or kuznetsov or coyle or oreilly or giroux or one of any number of quality players taken late in the first round.

Yeah sometimes youll get a bust. And sometimes youll get a guy like a derek roy. But sometimes you get that impact guy.

Going for third liners you have so much less margin for error... and the true top liners never reach free agency and are rarely traded... but that isnt true with third liners

Yeas, me too. But how do go about scoring the most goals? A team with 12 offensive forwards isn't necessarily going to score the most goals. Or rather, the goals that they score are going to be trumped by the goals they allow because they aren't willing to win the battles for the loose pucks nor sacrifice the body to clear the zone nor block a shot. They will also wear out pretty quick as opposing teams grind them out over the course of the season.

I don't think I need to explain you the importance of grinders, energy guys and PKers. You obviously can't think we should have signed Derek Roy (37 points, 1M salary) instead of Malhotra (13 points, 1M salary) to centre our 4th line, right?

So now that we agree, where do you propose we find those third liners?

Free agency? Yes, assuming they are allowed to walk and they reach free agency eligibility and are still healthy enough to play a physical style of hockey.

Trade? Yes, but remember that other GMs equally value a high-end grinder. Think of Alex Chiasson who was traded for Spezza. How about Dustin Brown? You think Dean Lombardi is going to trade him for Desharnais? I mean, he only scored 29 points last year whereas Desharnais scored 52. Surely we can easily swap the two players, right?

Later in the draft? Yes, I agree with you: ideally is where one would find them. However, if there is a special prospect who also happens to be one of the biggest guys in the entire draft, why do we have to specifically target an offensive minded forward with that selection? How long do we wait before we make our move, knowing that 24 GMs are drafting ahead of us?

I'll concede you this much: we should have probably traded down 10-15 spots and then took McCarron with the 35th overall.

In conclusion, I agree that high-talent is more important than brawn. However, you can't draft exclusively for talent either or else you miss out on the other crucial elements of a hockey game. Considering we had to trade for or acquired via free free agency (at a premium) our entire bottom six, I think there is nothing wrong with drafting and developing our own physical forwards every once in a while.

We just have to hope now McCarron makes it to the NHL one day.
 
12 scoring forwards is such a strawman argument. Yes I agree a team takes all types.

Look at our current team abd our prospect system. We have one true top notch first liner (max) one we hope will get there (ag) and some second line guys. Yes we need grinders. But its not like we are so flush with true scorers that we ignore this.

Also no team has ever ended up with too many elite players. If that ever becomes a problem trade one for 3 or 4 mccarrons. These deals can be made.

Are third liners moving teams? Yes every day. You cherry picked brown and chiasson.

Two years ago when steve ott was valuable he was moved for derek roy.

Brian Boyle walked in free agency.

We picked up prust just 2 years ago.

Steve downie went for a million bucks.

Matt hendricks has been moved for a backup goalie last year and also walked as a ufa.

Mike brown claimed on waivers now 1.2 million

Dale weise traded for diaz.

Etc... etc....

To me... walking into a draft and saying lets take McCarron he might be able to develop into 3rd or 4th line grinder in the first round... hey every team needs those... is almost the same as saying, hey i know we have a great goalie in Price, and young kids in both Tokarski and Fucale, lets draft Hayden Hawkey at 26th overall, we might develop into a great backup one day and every team needs a backup goalie.
 
Last edited:
One day I would love to see one team try to line up 4 offensive lines. I bet they would do much better than expected.
 
One day I would love to see one team try to line up 4 offensive lines. I bet they would do much better than expected.

The only thing that should stop a team from doing this is the salary cap. That's why it drives me nuts when Team Canada takes a checking line.
 
The only thing that should stop a team from doing this is the salary cap. That's why it drives me nuts when Team Canada takes a checking line.

Not really. There is plenty of good offensive players that are not in the NHL because they're borderline top 6 material. Heck you got Mike Ribeiro that signed for $1M, and he can provide decent offense for cheap. Of course you'll need a couple of guys to go get the puck in the corners but the idea is that instead of using guys that are only good in their own end for your bottom 6, you would use guys that are mostly better in the other end.
 
Not really. There is plenty of good offensive players that are not in the NHL because they're borderline top 6 material. Heck you got Mike Ribeiro that signed for $1M, and he can provide decent offense for cheap. Of course you'll need a couple of guys to go get the puck in the corners but the idea is that instead of using guys that are only good in their own end for your bottom 6, you would use guys that are mostly better in the other end.

Maybe I didn't post clearly. I was agreeing with you that teams should do it... and the only reason why any team shouldn't roll 4 scoring lines is if they can't afford to under the cap. Unfortunately teams seem to think you need "role players." Gimme talent over role players 10 out of 10 times.
 
I want to score more than the other team too. FYI winning 1-0 is scoring more than the other team.
 
Back
Top