New Canadian Politics Thread

[MindzEye]

I just despise that people can’t make sincere mistakes

I mean, there are own goals when you're trying to clear a header off of a corner, and own goals where you hit a 20 yard screamer back to the keeper and pick your own corner.

This is the latter. Completely inept. How do you do this without having just one out of your army of parliamentary pages run a super duper quick background check on "First Ukrainian Division". You don't even need to read the fucking wiki, just take quick note that it redirects to this name:



At that point, the grade 9 canadian history syllabus should be able to guide you home safely and you keep your job.

 

[worm]

No grey area with Nazis

 

[Montana]

I mean, there are own goals when you're trying to clear a header off of a corner, and own goals where you hit a 20 yard screamer back to the keeper and pick your own corner.

This is the latter. Completely inept. How do you do this without having just one out of your army of parliamentary pages run a super duper quick background check on "First Ukrainian Division". You don't even need to read the fucking wiki, just take quick note that it redirects to this name:

View attachment 17779

At that point, the grade 9 canadian history syllabus should be able to guide you home safely and you keep your job.

meh, he was contacted by one of his constituents about his 90 year old war hero father who was a Ukrainian soldier, in the “First Ukrainian Division”….a seemingly pretty straight forward, easy win while having Zelenskyy was there. That his mind didn’t immediately jump to “I should make sure this term doesn’t mean Nazi” is east to dunk on in retrospect or for history buffs who that comes to mind for…..but for the average Joe (everyone in attendance?)….it’s an easy mistake to make.

Unfortunately for Rota, there’s nothing in place where they do background/character checks on folks entering the gallery, only security checks (and it’s pretty reasonable to think Rota would assume that ‘security check’ is all encompassing, handled by the folks doing the security checks etc….and again not even cross his mind about a double meaning to First Ukrainian Division.)


It sucks, it is what it is….but everyone’s histrionics over it are pretty embarrassing. Its honestly the kind of childish shit that drives me nuts….in an adult world people who hear what happened, recognize there was no malicious intent, and everyone would agree to ensure procedures were put in place so no such error could happen again.


….but it’s not an adult world we live in.

 

[Montana]

and own goals where you hit a 20 yard screamer back to the keeper and pick your own corner.

just a funny aside, but the man Lionel Messi calls “the best defender on the planet right now”, Christian Romero did exactly the above this weekend…..tried deflecting a screamer of a shot wide, caught him funny and it picked the corner as if he’d meant to do it.

 

[MindzEye]

Yeah, we're going to have to agree to disagree here. When roughly half of your profession is managing optics, this is keystone cops shit.

Fwiw, his constituent has a blog where he tells his father's story complete with pictures (in SS uniform), literally 5 minutes of anyone involved taking a cursory glance into this spots the issue. It was a glowing red flag visible from space. I don't think it's too much to ask our politicians to be thoughtful enough about their optics & messaging to catch shit like this before it gets a fucking standing ovation in Parliament. If they're not going to be particularly competent about the shit we send them to Ottawa to actually do, at least be competent on optics & messaging. Shit...if competent is too much to ask, try not to make us an international fucking laughing stock, I'd settle for that on this one.

 

[UWHabs]

Yeah, we're going to have to agree to disagree here. When roughly half of your profession is managing optics, this is keystone cops shit.

Fwiw, his constituent has a blog where he tells his father's story complete with pictures (in SS uniform), literally 5 minutes of anyone involved taking a cursory glance into this spots the issue. It was a glowing red flag visible from space. I don't think it's too much to ask our politicians to be thoughtful enough about their optics & messaging to catch shit like this before it gets a fucking standing ovation in Parliament. If they're not going to be particularly competent about the shit we send them to Ottawa to actually do, at least be competent on optics & messaging. Shit...if competent is too much to ask, try not to make us an international fucking laughing stock, I'd settle for that on this one.

It can be both. Like, I don't think there was any "yeah, so he worked in a Nazi unit, we still ok to acknowledge him?" In play, but at the same time, if you do want to recognize someone in the gallery, especially when you have a foreign leader visiting, you think you would at least do a tiny bit more research. If not officially, heck I'd probably want to Google it briefly just for self-interest to learn a little.

 

[axlsalinger]

i mean you can kind of see how it could happen, and it's definitely been blown well out of proportion, but that doesn't change the fact that it's an obvious and dumbtastic own goal, and terrible optics for the government and the war effort.

 

[leafman101]

It’s not an understandable mistake at all IMO. It’s idiotic. And it’s not just the speaker. They are just putting it all on him. Every dumb ass that didn’t clue in after “this guy fought against Russia in WW2”. Nothing? That’s how far your head is up your own asses? It’s embarrassingly dumb. They are all morons.

also honouring a literal nazi in the house, specifically for his work as a nazi for that matter, isn’t frivolous. It’s horrific. Lack of intent doesn’t change that it happened.

and actually lack of intent isn’t even fair. It’s exactly what they intended to do. They just didn’t stop to think about it for a second first.

 

[anne25]

My understanding is that any guest invited by MP’s is thoroughly vetted but it is not a requirement for the speakers guests. I’m not sure why but various MP’s mentioned it.

The timing for this gaff was not great either since it happened on the start of Yom Kippur. I do feel a bit sorry for the speaker but he or his staff really should have been a bit more cautious considering the tight security for the day.

 

[mbow30]

It’s not an understandable mistake at all IMO. It’s idiotic. And it’s not just the speaker. They are just putting it all on him. Every dumb ass that didn’t clue in after “this guy fought against Russia in WW2”. Nothing? That’s how far your head is up your own asses? It’s embarrassingly dumb. They are all morons.

also honouring a literal nazi in the house, specifically for his work as a nazi for that matter, isn’t frivolous. It’s horrific. Lack of intent doesn’t change that it happened.

and actually lack of intent isn’t even fair. It’s exactly what they intended to do. They just didn’t stop to think about it for a second first.

Yep.
Dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb.

 

[mbow30]

Also this is the most egregious but nor the first time something like this has happened

 

[thehabhater]

In a week, no one will care

 

[axlsalinger]

 

[anne25]

In a week, no one will care

Unless some other scandal happens don't be so sure. Russia is vigorously using it to their propaganda advantage. Poland is upset and considering (unrealistic) asking for the guy to be returned as a war criminal.

 

[Montana]

Canada accepted 700-2,000 veterans of the Galician division after the war, and have a war memorial for them outside an Oakville cemetery…

cenotaph at the St. Volodmyr Ukrainian Cemetery in Oakville, Ontario,

the 1985 Commission of Inquiry on War Criminals in Canada, often referred to as the Deschênes Commission, which concluded that charges of war crimes against the Galician Division have “never been substantiated.”

In the context of Moscow’s then-recent annexation of Crimea, however, Canadian media immediately dismissed this criticism as part of a Russian “disinformation campaign.” Ihor Michalchyshyn, executive director and CEO of the Ukrainian Canadian Congress, denounced the comments as an attempt to “stir up controversy” and “obfuscate the [situation]” taking place in Europe at the time.

sounds like we as a country have a lot of reckon with, looks like we sided with the Ukrainian nationalists from the start believing that they were fighting to protect Ukraine from the Soviets & communism…..


not that it matters here obviously, cause this is about the optics of it first and foremost, (especially given the moment in time, and that Zelenskyy was present, making it that much worse)…...and I think it’s likely an unanswerable question, but I’m fascinated to know what Yaroslav Hunka actually did as a member of the SS Galicia Division. Like did he fight in Ukraine against the Soviets so has always viewed himself as justified….or did he take part in some of the more ghastly events in Poland,

 

[Montana]

Slightly Off topic: what’s the consensus belief on what took place during the Euromaidan?

I’d always assumed the police shot first, but Ivan Katchanowski’s writing in the lead up to the Russian invasion blasted media for pushing that narrative when there’s, in his opinion, conclusive proof that it was protesters who kicked it off by shooting police first. (Think that’s Oliver Stones narrative in his film, as well?)

He says someone in the Maidan has admit to shooting at police first…..that legit? Or Russia propaganda he fell for?

 

[Wayward DP]

I just despise that people can’t make sincere mistakes…..if there was any evidence he knew, that’s one thing, but it’s pretty clear where his intentions were imo.

tried to do a good thing, blew up in his face…everyone wishes he’d done the proper vetting, no one more than himself.

congrats to the conservatives who’ll make a mountain out of it, instead of debating legitimate issues, you got a freebie…..enjoy it dickweasels, you’re the ones intentionally looking to ruin a man’s career just for your own benefit, despite knowing how simple & meaningless a mistake it ultimately was.

Simple, yes.

Meaningless, far from it.

 

[Wayward DP]

meh, he was contacted by one of his constituents about his 90 year old war hero father who was a Ukrainian soldier, in the “First Ukrainian Division”….a seemingly pretty straight forward, easy win while having Zelenskyy was there. That his mind didn’t immediately jump to “I should make sure this term doesn’t mean Nazi” is east to dunk on in retrospect or for history buffs who that comes to mind for…..but for the average Joe (everyone in attendance?)….it’s an easy mistake to make.

Unfortunately for Rota, there’s nothing in place where they do background/character checks on folks entering the gallery, only security checks (and it’s pretty reasonable to think Rota would assume that ‘security check’ is all encompassing, handled by the folks doing the security checks etc….and again not even cross his mind about a double meaning to First Ukrainian Division.)


It sucks, it is what it is….but everyone’s histrionics over it are pretty embarrassing. Its honestly the kind of childish shit that drives me nuts….in an adult world people who hear what happened, recognize there was no malicious intent, and everyone would agree to ensure procedures were put in place so no such error could happen again.


….but it’s not an adult world we live in.

This is literal fuel for ongoing Russian propaganda. Let’s not try to minimize the impact or significance.

There are lots of folks out there who buy into the ‘Ukrainians are Nazis’ narrative. This episode helps further entrench them, at a time where the hearts and minds need to be firmly in the Ukrainian camp all around the world.

 

[lecoqsportif]

We were at war with the Nazi regime, so we most certainly did not “side” with the Galician Division. They were our enemy.

Anti-Soviet rationale likely emerged after the war when the survivors were living in Germany in DP camps. We were in full anti-Soviet mode (Churchill speech) at that point, and with many former Soviet citizens justifiably refusing to return home (they were bring murdered, sent to Siberia.) So the anti-soviet thing was used to justify immigration. The vast majority of these people had noting to do with the Galician Division, they were mostly ostarbeiters. That said, some Galician Division fighters were among the migrants.

The point being a lot of this is old history and as noted above, a small part of a very messy and gruesome period of European history. Check out Timothy Snyder’s Bloodlands. The reality was that Nazi Germany’s horrific intersection in the long sweep of the Russo-Ukrainian struggle was short lived and is irrelevant in 2023, unless it’s deliberately used in propaganda. This is what makes Rota’s carelessness particularly annoying.

 

[Montana]

This is literal fuel for ongoing Russian propaganda. Let’s not try to minimize the impact or significance.

that’s not in question. That’s definitely huge

There are lots of folks out there who buy into the ‘Ukrainians are Nazis’ narrative.

including us, with Hunka.

This episode helps further entrench them, at a time where the hearts and minds need to be firmly in the Ukrainian camp all around the world.

well, not all around the world….like not here, for Ukrainians who may have just fought the Bolsheviks, but we don’t know 100% so to us they’re nazi’s. Period.

….but all the other Ukranians? For sure.