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OT: American Politics

Re: OT - American Politics

no dumber than the press declares every other major republican to be i guess.
Yeah, because it's the press' fault that Ann Coulter thinks we invaded Egypt, or that Canada joined the U.S. in Vietnam. Them "liberal" reporters convinced Dan Quayle that Idaho's potato has an "e" on the end of it. If only the press didn't tell Sarah Palin that you can actually know everything about American foreign policy on Russia by looking at them from Alaska. Maybe if Michelle Bachman wasn't so hounded by MSNBC staff, she wouldn't claim that God talks to her directly.
Or... maybe the Republicans just need to stop picking idiots to represent them.
 
Re: OT - American Politics

The left took every pause Bush made in a statement as proof that he was an idiot.
Yeah, it was the pauses. Of course.

[video=youtube;eKgPY1adc0A]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKgPY1adc0A[/video]

[video=youtube;PpEPd4x_mPE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpEPd4x_mPE[/video]

"I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully."

"You work three jobs? … Uniquely American, isn't it? I mean, that is fantastic that you're doing that."

Yeah. It was the pauses. For sure...
 
Re: OT - American Politics

Geez, here we go again.

Obama is a tool, Jimmy Carter incarnate. Intelligent? Sure. Weak? Absolutely.

Problem is most of the Republicans coming out of the woodwork are also tools.

I ****ing hate American Politics.
 
Re: OT - American Politics

One is the root cause of the other. The answer is obvious.
 
Re: OT - American Politics

Oh and Berezin is truly weeping. Wow, two weeks of total suckage.
 
Re: OT - American Politics

Geez, here we go again.

Obama is a tool, Jimmy Carter incarnate. Intelligent? Sure. Weak? Absolutely.

Problem is most of the Republicans coming out of the woodwork are also tools.

I ****ing hate American Politics.

i agree with you.

but here's a question: what would you say if obama had, early in his administration while the dems held the house, passed what he wanted rather than trying to appear conciliatory? if tarp spending was $1.5trn as people like krugman had said it should be, and if the dems had imposed regulations like left LEANING (from a relative perspective) economists like krugman have called for. i don't ask to be antagonistic. just wondering what you think you'd be saying if obama had done what he wanted, rather than trying to be 'bi/post partisan'
 
Re: OT - American Politics

Obama definitely has responsibility for the ballooning debt, but the hand wringing and arm waiving while ignoring what got the U.S to this point is silly.

If anyone wants to blame Obama for not fixing the problem, have at it, it's a legitimate line of argument. But when the claim is that Obama is the problem, well that's just silly. It's a claim that falls apart under any sort of scrutiny. Same as that little dig of yours at him, it falls apart as soon as context gets added. To put this all another way and ask another question. "At what point does the failed fixes for Bush's mess make it Obama's mess?" I would answer "soon" because sooner or later, one of his core problems; not being able to beat the Republicans politically to get anything that he wants done to actually get done, has to fall on his shoulders as the abject failure it's sure looking like right now.

Clinton also dealt with an obstructionist Congress and he manhandled them. I've long contended that Obama's core problem was actually trying to be conciliatory with the Republican's at all.

"But when the claim is that Obama is the problem"

You must be thinking of someone else, I can't take credit for that.

those failed fixes as you call them, are reflected by an additional 4plus trillion $ he's added to the debt. That's my dig, the contribution to national debt that candidate Obama raised alarm over, called unpatriotic, and later piled it on at record levels. If Obama can score political points with that rhetoric, he's fair game now by his own hand. Which you seem to agree with anyway, provided I don't blame the whole fiscal mess on Obama, which I don't. His share is enough to threaten his re-election on it's very own.
 
Re: OT - American Politics

"But when the claim is that Obama is the problem"

You must be thinking of someone else, I can't take credit for that.

It's a common rallying cry from the right wing in recent months.

those failed fixes as you call them, are reflected by an additional 4plus trillion $ he's added to the debt.

That's the rub. Sure they're reflected in the additional debt, he's had little choice in the matter short of incredible levels of spending cuts. The one bit of "out of control" spending that can be hung on him is the stimulus package, but that's a matter of economic ideology. The possibility of the U.S economy contracting significantly in the absence of significant deficit spending was extremely high. Like Msun noted, most top economists argued at the time that the stimulus was actually much too small. The 4 trillion in additional debt is imo more indicative of massive revenue contraction than it is a matter of out of control spending.


That's my dig, the contribution to national debt that candidate Obama raised alarm over, called unpatriotic, and later piled it on at record levels.

Well, let's be real here....Bush raised national debt during a period of mediocre growth, but at least it was growth. Revenues were generally strong and his deficits were based on policy decisions he had the luxury of making for himself, not those heaped on him by a derelict previous administration.

If Obama can score political points with that rhetoric, he's fair game now by his own hand. Which you seem to agree with anyway, provided I don't blame the whole fiscal mess on Obama, which I don't. His share is enough to threaten his re-election on it's very own.

and this is fair enough, though as I noted above I think that a clear distinction has to be made about the environments the two debt numbers were "achieved" in.
 
Re: OT - American Politics

Here's a well detailed paper from the Brookings Institute titled, "President Barack Obama’s First Two Years: Policy Accomplishments, Political Difficulties" - Nov 4, 2010

a few highlights but I recommend reading the whole thing.

********************************************************​

During his first two years in office, President Barack Obama and his Democratic allies in Congress compiled a substantial record of policy accomplishment—the economic stimulus, bringing the financial system back from the brink of collapse, rescuing two automakers, universal health care, sweeping reform of financial regulation, and major changes in student loan programs, among many others. Nevertheless, the political standing of both the president and congressional Democrats slipped steadily through much of this period, and the voters administered a substantial rebuke in the November 2010 midterm elections....

What went wrong? There are four broad schools of thought.

The first— popular among mainstream liberals, and the most supportive of the president—focuses on the unusual quantity and nature of problems that Obama inherited when he took the oath of office......

In reality, the divide between the parties and between red and blue America went well beyond incivility to embrace disagreements on core principles and conceptions of how the world works. Bridging this divide, if possible at all, would have taken much more than a change of tone in the White House. It would have required, as well, a policy agenda that breached traditional partisan bounds. But there was little in Obama’s agenda that corresponded to Bill Clinton’s heterodox positions on crime, welfare, trade, and fiscal restraint. Instead, Obama synthesized and advocated policies representing the consensus within the Democratic Party. Republicans rejected that agenda as a basis for reaching common ground.....

The second explanation, associated with the left wing of the Democratic Party, argues that Obama failed politically, not because he was too partisan, but because he wasn’t partisan enough; not because he went too far, but because he didn’t go far enough

There is something to this critique as well. Given the intensity of the polarization that predated his presidency, Obama did underestimate the difficulty of mitigating it. Even the White House’s strongest defenders concede that the health care debate went on much longer than it should have, with negative consequences for the rest of Obama’s agenda. And his administration’s kid-glove treatment of big banks and AIG was morally and politically tone-deaf....

For the most part, however, the critique from the left fails the test of political realism. The administration couldn’t have gotten a larger stimulus bill, even if it had pushed hard; nor could it have passed health reform with a public option, let alone the liberal beau ideal, a single-payer system. The reason is the same in both cases: not only were Republicans unanimously opposed, but so were many Democrats. What the liberals overlook is that unlike the Republican Party, Democrats are a diverse ideological coalition, split roughly 40/40/20 among liberals, moderates, and conservatives at the grassroots level. In the country as a whole, moreover, liberals constitute only one fifth of the electorate and cannot hope to succeed outside a coalition with Americans to their right.....

There is also a third explanation, a critique from the right: while Obama campaigned as a moderate conciliator, he governed as a liberal activist, undermining the possibility of bipartisan cooperation and preventing himself from overcoming the divide between Red and Blue America. His efforts to bring Republicans into the conversation were largely cosmetic and were inconsistent with the role he allowed House Democratic leaders to play in the legislative process.

As we’ll see, there are some elements of truth in this critique as well. There was indeed a tension at the heart of the Obama campaign between the rhetoric of post-partisanship and the substance of the agenda. Once in office, Obama could have tried harder to restrain Democratic partisanship in the House and to build Republican concerns into his health care proposals.

Nonetheless, one overriding fact undermines the plausibility of the critique from the right. After their defeat in 2008, Republicans quickly reached a consensus on the cause: voters had punished them, not because they had been too conservative, but rather because they hadn’t been conservative enough. They had come to Washington to cut spending and limit government, but under George W. Bush, they concluded, they had become the reverse—a party that used government programs to cement its majority....

In this paper, I will argue for a fourth explanation. The gist of it is this: Yes, American history is replete with examples of presidents and parties who experience political difficulties in hard economic times, only to regain public esteem as the economy regains its balance. But there is more to the losses that President Obama and the Democratic Party suffered in November 2010: the public punished them, not only for high unemployment and slow growth, but also for what it regarded as sins of both commission and omission. The White House and congressional leaders pursued an agenda that the people mostly rejected while overlooking measures that might well have improved the economy more, and almost certainly would have been more popular, than what they did instead. In short, while Obama was dealt a bad hand, he proceeded to misplay it, making the political backlash even worse than it had to be.

There's far more to this paper than I've cherry picked.....so enjoy the read

http://www.brookings.edu/papers/2010/1104_obama_galston.aspx
 
Re: OT - American Politics

Here's a well detailed paper from the Brookings Institute titled, "President Barack Obama’s First Two Years: Policy Accomplishments, Political Difficulties" - Nov 4, 2010

Interesting but a bit biased. He's soft-peddling some of obama's failures.......and he still whacks him a few.

WHO is that paper written by?

~~~~~~~~~~~

William A. Galston

Senior Fellow, Governance Studies

The Ezra K. Zilkha Chair in Governance Studies

A former policy advisor to President Clinton and presidential candidates, Bill Galston is an expert on domestic policy, political campaigns, and elections. His current research focuses on designing a new social contract and the implications of political polarization.

http://www.brookings.edu/experts/galstonw.aspx


William Galston is a political theorist. He is the Saul I Stern Professor of Civic Engagement and the director of the Institute for Philosophy and Public Policy at the School of Public Policy of University of Maryland, College Park. In addition, he is a Senior Fellow of Governance at the Brookings Institution. He was also a senior adviser to President of the United States Bill Clinton on domestic policy, and has also been employed by the presidential campaigns of Al Gore and Walter Mondale.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Galston
 
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Re: OT - American Politics

In short, while Obama was dealt a bad hand, he proceeded to misplay it, making the political backlash even worse than it had to be.

I agree with that. I've long stated that Obama needed to go after Wall Street as his first major action as President. Putting a rope on them (raising leverage requirements, regulating some of the more exotic financial instruments like CDO's & CDS') would have been an easy sell to the public, would likely have forced the Republicans into a corner where to not support it in the wake of the financial collapse would have been extremely damaging to public perception of the party...but....

Wall Street firms were among Obama's largest donors.

I only step in to defend Obama here when I find him being criticized for something silly, or plain inaccurate. He's done more than enough critique worthy. The worst part is, the current crop of Republicans are a huge catastrophe waiting to happen.
 
Re: OT - American Politics

What's a fair point, HabsAddict's sad attempt to pretend that Bush and Obama are of similar intelligence if you remove teleprompters from the equation?

That it is fair game to go on the offensive that Obama overuses his teleprompter.
 
Re: OT - American Politics

i agree with you.

but here's a question: what would you say if obama had, early in his administration while the dems held the house, passed what he wanted rather than trying to appear conciliatory? if tarp spending was $1.5trn as people like krugman had said it should be, and if the dems had imposed regulations like left LEANING (from a relative perspective) economists like krugman have called for. i don't ask to be antagonistic. just wondering what you think you'd be saying if obama had done what he wanted, rather than trying to be 'bi/post partisan'

I'd probably still think he was a tool but have some modicum of respect that he did it his way whether I agreed with it or not. There are plenty of people I disagree with vehemently but still have respect for because they sack up and do things their way. It is not uncommon to have respect for someone you dislike. 20/20 hindsight is showing half-measures did nothing to alleviate the problems facing the economy and employment here.
 
Re: OT - American Politics

Interesting but a bit biased. He's soft-peddling some of obama's failures.......and he still whacks him a few.

WHO is that paper written by?

~~~~~~~~~~~

William A. Galston

Senior Fellow, Governance Studies

The Ezra K. Zilkha Chair in Governance Studies

A former policy advisor to President Clinton and presidential candidates, Bill Galston is an expert on domestic policy, political campaigns, and elections. His current research focuses on designing a new social contract and the implications of political polarization.

http://www.brookings.edu/experts/galstonw.aspx


William Galston is a political theorist. He is the Saul I Stern Professor of Civic Engagement and the director of the Institute for Philosophy and Public Policy at the School of Public Policy of University of Maryland, College Park. In addition, he is a Senior Fellow of Governance at the Brookings Institution. He was also a senior adviser to President of the United States Bill Clinton on domestic policy, and has also been employed by the presidential campaigns of Al Gore and Walter Mondale.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Galston
The same discoveries were made about your linked sources, HypocriteAddict. But as quoted in my signature, you are NOT objective. Carry on.
 
Re: OT - American Politics

I wonder how long the "Yea, but Bush was ...... " rebuttal will be used by the Left.

5 years? 10 years? More?

I mean, we're almost at 8 years for Mike Harris and he was only a premiere.
 
Re: OT - American Politics

It's understandable that the right would like to forget Bush asap, but nobody else will forget the worst president in history. And as long as the right keeps trying to blame Obama for problems created by Bush, then the left will continue to point out where the fault actually lies. Especially when the people challenging Obama in the next election will all be taking Bush's worst policies and repeating them at an even higher level.

And thankfully, it seems like the average american joe isn't quite as ridiculous as the loudscreamers would have you believe:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...y-more-americans-still-blame-bush-over-obama/

More people now believe the country is headed in the wrong direction, a new Associated Press-GfK poll shows, and confidence in Obama's handling of the economy has slipped from just a few months ago, notably among fellow Democrats.

The survey found that 86 percent of adults see the economy as "poor," up from 80 percent in June. About half -- 49 percent -- said it worsened just in the past month. Only 27 percent responded that way in the June survey.

That can't be good news for a president revving up his re-election campaign. Yet there are several hopeful signs for Obama.

Despite the perception of a weakening recovery, there has been no significant change in the number of people who say he deserves re-election: 47 percent as opposed to 48 percent two months ago. That's a statistical dead heat with those who favor a change in the White House.

And more Americans still blame former President George W. Bush rather than Obama for the economic distress. Some 31 percent put the bulk of the blame on Obama, while 51 percent point to his Republican predecessor.
 
Re: OT - American Politics

So an infinite period of time. Nice. That should adequately absolve Obama and any other President of resposibility.
 
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