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OT: American Politics

Habsy said:
That has been my argument the whole time. I get that guns are lethal but in the end they are still an inanimate object. Do they allow the mentally unstable to kill a little easier? Sure, I'll give you guys that point. In the end it's about mental health. Anyone willing to pull a trigger not in self-defense, create pipe bombs to blow people up, drive vehicles loaded with explosives into populated areas, wear bomb vests, drive trucks through crowds killing innocent people and especially children are just mentally insane.

The root of the problem isn't guns, it's education, employment, security, food, freedom. This despicable act epitomizes the argument.

Instead of spending obscene amounts of money on stupidity, governments need to get proactive in breaking the chain of poverty and educate the youth so that this issue doesn't keep getting passed down through generations.
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These two issues are not mutually exclusive, though. Mental health is a huge problem, no doubt about it, and it is something that will test the limits of humanity over the next 20-30 years. Many more people are suffering from these "non-biological" conditions, and I think we will be surprised at how much of an impact they really have on the day to day function of the population.

Having said that, this changes nothing about gun law regulations. Bottom line: the easy access to guns makes it very simple for these mentally challenged people to hurt others. That's all that really matters. America has some of the least stringent set of gun laws, and has one of the highest gun-related morbidity rates in the world. Countries that have tightened their gun laws see less of these incidents. These things are not coincidences. I get that it is ingrained in the culture, that the American cowboy is something that natives to the country will stick to until their thumbs turn blue. Doesn't change reality. And until meaningful change comes from this, you will continue to see senseless deaths on your home soil at the hands of these recreational "inanimate" objects.
 
And before you respond with the notion that a truck did most of the damage in the Nice incident, keep in mind the guy had a heavy artillery with him in the truck and was engaged in gun fire with the crowd and with authorities before he was put down. Guns give wack-jobs like the back-bone to go apeshit like this, and protect themselves from the authorities while they rack up their death toll.

The crazies may try to hurt others, regardless of the regulations we place on them. Doesn't mean we should make it easier for them, though.
 
I'm less concerned with the amount of guns in the States than I am the mentality behind it.

The fact that a weapon is America's chief symbol of freedom is whack.

The way the NRA has brainwashed too many of them into believing that any type of restriction is just a trick to take away their freedom...this is the problem. There's more, but to me, the fact that The Gun is America's backbone points to a cracked foundation.
 
The foundation was always cracked. It's what you get when your country was born from the gun. Not many western countries have the violent history of birth that the US has. Sure there were revolts and wars but nothing like American history.

It's ingrained.
 
leaffan2005 said:
And before you respond with the notion that a truck did most of the damage in the Nice incident, keep in mind the guy had a heavy artillery with him in the truck and was engaged in gun fire with the crowd and with authorities before he was put down. Guns give wack-jobs like the back-bone to go apeshit like this, and protect themselves from the authorities while they rack up their death toll.

The crazies may try to hurt others, regardless of the regulations we place on them. Doesn't mean we should make it easier for them, though.
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Tell me again what a wacko in France with guns in the truck has to do with US gun laws? France has much stricter gun laws and that idiot had automatic weapons. You're just proving gun proponents points.

Also, not one of the tragedies in the states were performed by automatic weaponry, or an assault weapon for that matter. Contrary to the progressive talking point, the AR15 is not an assault rifle. The AR stands for ArmaLite Rifle.
 
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So what are you saying? We should not look to improve ourselves because it is ingrained in our culture? Slavery was also ingrained in our culture, and does not exist in its purest form today.

America does have a long-standing violent history. Doesn't mean we don't know better now and should not push for positive reform. Progressive ideas and social reform have been going on for decades now, but this is one issue that has remained steadfast with the RWNJ's, even with repeated tragedy on their home soil. It will take a unilateral decision from the administration to eventually save people from themselves and do the right thing. People will get over the loss of their precious guns when their friends and family stop getting slaughtered in the streets, in their schools, in their movie theatres, etc.
 
Habsy said:
Tell me again what a wacko in France with guns in the truck has to do with US gun laws? France had much stricter gin laws and that idiot had automatic weapons. You're just proving gun proponents points.

Also, not one of the tragedies in the states were performed by automatic weaponry, or an assault weapon for that matter. Contrary to the progressive talking point, the AR15 is not an assault rifle. The AR stands for ArmaLite Rifle.
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My points were not so much pointed at this France incident, but the increasing number of gun-related deaths in America. And this leads in to another argument that gun-apologists regularly make. Making stricter gun laws does not mean you get rid of every single gun-related tragedy. You will just less of them, and that is a win for everybody. So sure, there will still be nutjobs who get their hands on automatic weapons amidst strict background checks. Doesn't mean we should make it easy for them and not potentially dissuade 4 or 5 other people who share the same views to take the burdensome steps in finding these weapons and carrying out an attack like this.
 
Comparing owning an inanimate object to owning slaves is a non- starter. It's a quick way to end a discussion because it's so ridiculous it doesn't merit discussion. I'm not looking to have yet another discussion degrade into yet another hyperbolic emotional cess pool. If you'd like to continue discussing the opposing viewpoints please refrain from stuff like that.

I believe you're relatively new to the States (please correct me if I'm wrong) and have moved to a very liberal area so perhaps you haven't had the exposure I've had to those you call RWNJ. While there are plenty that I would put in that category myself, I can assure you gun ownership and the want of them is not exclusive to them. Blacks, Whites, Hispanics, Asians and others all own them and want to keep owning them. It's another canard that it's just the right that wants them. The NRA always used the hunter as their poster boy so people think it's only RWNJ. the NRA has recently stepped up it's game in ads showing women and minorities claiming to want their guns.

All that said, I am a proponent of background checks, gun registration and even required licenses. You need a license to drive, you should need one to shoot.

The ideologues bog it down out of fear of a perceived slippery slope, I'm in disagreement.

Also, you never seem to discuss laws being blocked by progressives. This is the problem with Washington, one side always wants something from the other just to do the right thing. Take Kate's law. That should have passed easily but progressives blocked it. Congress even stripped out all issues with sanctuary cities (which fly in the face of federal law) to get it passed. They blocked it. Kate's Law needs to pass. Violent (convicted) illegal immigrants that get deported and return get automatic jail time. They're deported to avoid jail in the first place. The asshat that killed Kate Steinle in San Francisco returned 7 times. Unacceptable.
 
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Habsy said:
Comparing owning an inanimate object to owning slaves is a non- starter. It's a quick way to end a discussion because it's so ridiculous it doesn't merit discussion. I'm not looking to have yet another discussion degrade into yet another hyperbolic emotional cess pool. If you'd like to continue discussing the opposing viewpoints please refrain from stuff like that.

I believe you're relatively new to the States (please correct me if I'm wrong) and have moved to a very liberal area so perhaps you haven't had the exposure I've had to those you call RWNJ. While there are plenty that I would put in that category myself, I can assure you gun ownership and the want of them is not exclusive to them. Blacks, Whites, Hispanics, Asians and others all own them and want to keep owning them. It's another canard that it's just the right that wants them. The NRA always used the hunter as their poster boy so people think it's only RWNJ. the NRA has recently stepped up it's game in ads showing women and minorities claiming to want their guns.

All that said, I am a proponent of background checks, gun registration and even required licenses. You need a license to drive, you should need one to shoot.

The ideologues bog it down out of fear of a perceived slippery slope, I'm in disagreement.

Also, you never seem to discuss laws being blocked by progressives. This is the problem with Washington, one side always wants something from the other just to do the right thing. Take Kate's law. That should have passed easily but progressives blocked it. Congress even stripped out all issues with sanctuary cities (which fly in the face of federal law) to get it passed. They blocked it. Kate's Law needs to pass. Violent (convicted) illegal immigrants that get deported and return get automatic jail time. They're deported to avoid jail in the first place. The asshat that killed Kate Steinle in San Francisco returned 7 times. Unacceptable.
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Guns_Race.jpg


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Sure, certain minority groups also like their guns. Doesn't mean that the majority are not older white men from the South. So me pointing this to a RWNJ mentality is not unfair in the slightest. They are not the only proponents of guns in your country (I live in Canada btw, which I know, makes me entirely unequipped to have this conversation with you I am sure), but they are the ones driving the bus.

And if you are in favour of strict licensing practices and background checks, then we are in agreement. These things should be tough to own. You shouldn't be able to walk into a Walmart and walk out with enough artillery to battle a small country. While this may be hyperbole, it doesn't change the fact that it is way too easy to get your hands on these things in the States. And they don't have to be automatic weapons.

Also, the comparison with slavery was made to challenge idealistic excuses for America's current gun culture. Point is that we change our stance on longstanding cultural values all the time. I don't accept that America will never change their stance on guns because of some internal war that happened 150 years ago.
 
The big issue in the US is that guns are seen as a right, I think it's less of a problem that there is a high level of gun ownership. Rights without responsibilities never works out well. Pro-gun proponents in the US like to use Switzerland as an example of a nation that has fairly high gun ownership rates (about 25%) but little gun violence. Well, there are some major differences. Switzerland has conscription. Each citizen is trained to use a gun, and be responsible with a gun, in the course of their military training. Then they are allowed to transfer that same gun when they become a private citizen. Switzerland also has fairly big restrictions..in terms of what weapons you can access, how you go about buying guns, buying ammunition, carrying, etc.
 
It's your bias speaking when you say the majority are older white men from the south. Even the numbers you produced don't bear that out.

Let's look deeper at those numbers shall we?

Let's take pistols for now. 59% are owned by Whites, not white men. Whites. 38% are owned in the South. That means just over 22% are owned by white southerners, including women. Yeah, I don't see your majority there man.

Now let's look further:

US-By-Race1.jpg


http://www.rebsan.win/usa-ethnicity-percentages-2016

African Americans/other make up 37% of the population.

Whites make up 63% of the population.

Yet African Americans/other own 46% of pistols?

If there are 100 million pistols African Americans/others own 46 million. Whites 59M.

300 million people means 111M African Americans/other. .53 pistols per capita.


300 million means 189M Whites. .35 pistols per capita.

If progressives and movements like Black Lives Matter are going to use per capita for issues like police stops, killings etc. It needs to be used for gun ownership.

You're biased view that RWNJ and "old white southerners" own the majority of guns is simply not true.

These are rough numbers as your gun ownership chart equates to 95% for pistols, not 100. But even the quick math doesn't bear out what you're claiming.
 
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leaffan2005 said:
Sure, certain minority groups also like their guns. Doesn't mean that the majority are not older white men from the South. So me pointing this to a RWNJ mentality is not unfair in the slightest. They are not the only proponents of guns in your country (I live in Canada btw, which I know, makes me entirely unequipped to have this conversation with you I am sure), but they are the ones driving the bus.
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Let's not do this. People are right, this thread has degraded into an ideologue shit-show and I've been complicit in that. Keeping the discussion on point would enrich the debate with other people's views that would rather not engage in a bashfest but would probably like to interject their point of view without the demagoguery.

My point is your opinion is based on what you've experienced in Canada and what you read and see on TV. It doesn't invalidate your point, it just makes it academic at best. I've seen some really big nutters and I've also seen good, decent people get clumped in with them. When I think of the "Southern Man" I don't see him as a racist gun toting former slave owner like many appear to do. Sure there are plenty of them but the catch-all term is actually insulting to the decent people.
 
Leafovic said:
The big issue in the US is that guns are seen as a right, I think it's less of a problem that there is a high level of gun ownership. Rights without responsibilities never works out well. Pro-gun proponents in the US like to use Switzerland as an example of a nation that has fairly high gun ownership rates (about 25%) but little gun violence. Well, there are some major differences. Switzerland has conscription. Each citizen is trained to use a gun, and be responsible with a gun, in the course of their military training. Then they are allowed to transfer that same gun when they become a private citizen. Switzerland also has fairly big restrictions..in terms of what weapons you can access, how you go about buying guns, buying ammunition, carrying, etc.
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It's seen as a right because they are told it IS a right per the second amendment.
 
Leafovic said:
Oh, I know..it still doesn't make it less of a problem.
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You're telling me? I own guns because it's a problem. As catch-22 as that sounds (and it is), I probably wouldn't own as many if idiots weren't allowed to buy, and walk around with them, at will. When I am out with my family I refuse to be unprotected anymore. I know the statistics and the rarity of them but I also know the probabilities are climbing and that is extremely disconcerting when you live in an affluent area.
 
Trump is having a press conference to introduce Mike Pence as his VP running mate. We are twenty minutes into a rambling speech with Trump talking about how great Donald Trump is. Everytime he tries to get back on his written speech he just puts it down and starts talking about how great he is again. Unbelieveable. Mike Pence must be just standing there thinking to himself, "WTF did I get myself into."

This is really embarrassing to watch.

He is reading Pence's creditentials off a peace of paper and as he reads off each thing, Trump compares himself to it and how great he is.
 
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