OT: The News Thread

[MindzEye]

Does anyone actually really give a shit about "international law?"

Absolutely. Why shouldn't we? This is kind of odd coming from someone well versed in history. Have you really forgotten why international law became international law?

If It's being used to store or fire weapons it's fair game.

They killed more Palestinians with this one attack, than there were Jews killed in the entire rocket barrage that lead up to this. At some point we need to get beyond "they have a right to defend themselves" and start discussing proportionality.

 

[hockeylover]

I'm not well versed in all the politics here but the thought of hitting a hospital makes me really really uncomfortable. I know I'm biased because I'm in health care but wow, that's low.

 

[JaysCyYoung]

Absolutely. Why shouldn't we? This is kind of odd coming from someone well versed in history. Have you really forgotten why international law became international law?

If you want to start applying international law you should have applied it once a terrorist organization won the elections.

They killed more Palestinians with this one attack, than there were Jews killed in the entire rocket barrage that lead up to this. At some point we need to get beyond "they have a right to defend themselves" and start discussing proportionality.

Is there is still a risk to Israeli lives, which Israel is obviously going to be more concerned with, the IDF will continue to take all necessary measures to eliminate that threat.

 

[JaysCyYoung]

I'm not well versed in all the politics here but the thought of hitting a hospital makes me really really uncomfortable. I know I'm biased because I'm in health care but wow, that's low.

It's extremely low to hide weapons or launch attacks from hospitals, schools, and libraries, absolutely. I agree. They're basically forcing Israel's hand here, and they don't care because they love when more "martyrs" are created, because it pisses off the local populace, which only gives Hamas more power, and it makes the bleeding heart leftists in the west mad at Israel.

Win-win for them. They don't give a shit about their fellow citizens.

 

[leafman101]

The attacked a hospital and only killed 5 people. Its not like they Jokered the place and massacred cancer patients. They are telling civilians where and when they are coming and to get out of the way which is kind of counter intuitive in war. Israel is working a lot harder than most nations do to prevent casualties in situations like this.

Its a really, really tough situation that there doesn't seem to be any solution to. Never mind an easy one with no casualties.

 

[MindzEye]

If you want to start applying international law you should have applied it once a terrorist organization won the elections.

You mean when Fatah won this last election?

Is there is still a risk to Israeli lives, which Israel is obviously going to be more concerned with, the IDF will continue to take all necessary measures to eliminate that threat.

Yes, by almost indiscriminately bombing the shit out of the Palestinian people. Again, when does proportionality enter the discussion? By your response, never. You've logically approved of genocide. Under the status quo there will always be a threat it Israeli lives, so just eliminate all Palestinians, right? When does proportionality enter the discussion?

 

[hockeylover]

Probably better if I just stay out of this thread.

 

[JaysCyYoung]

LOL you do realize that the IDF has enough firepower to destroy the entire West Bank and Gaza in under 10 minutes? The fact that they are killing as few people as they have been to date is an indication of the utter restraint that they have conducted their air strikes to date.

When does proportionality enter the discussion?

What relevance does proportionality have to this conversation? If Israel can make it so that every attack, every threat to Israel is responded to with such an overwhelming show of force that any future plans are scuttled or made phyrric, they should engage in such strategy.

 

[leafman101]

Proportionality is easy to talk about from the comfort of your own home here. Its not like Israel's first reaction is to wipe out all of the Palestinians. They could easily do that, even now. But they aren't. They don't want that.

That amount of rockets continually being launched into your nation isn't something that you should have to stand by because you are stronger than them. What do you think the US would do if we started launching rockets at them. Or what would Canada do if some native reserve started launching rockets?

They put up with a lot of rockets before it got to this point.

And they've been telling everyone where they are going and when to save as many civilian lives as they can. Most nations don't go to those kind of lengths in situations like this. There could be a lot more than 500 casualties right now. There are 1.8 million people in Gaza.

Its a shitty situation though for sure. I really don't know that there is a non-horrible way to handle it.

 

[MindzEye]

LOL you do realize that the IDF has enough firepower to destroy the entire West Bank and Gaza in under 10 minutes? The fact that they are killing as few people as they have been to date is an indication of the utter restraint that they have conducted their air strikes to date.



What relevance does proportionality have to this conversation? If Israel can make it so that every attack, every threat to Israel is responded to with such an overwhelming show of force that any future plans are scuttled or made phyrric, they should engage in such strategy.

Disgusting, abhorrent thinking. Any sleight, any damage to Israel is to be met with tremendous amounts of damage...not on the people perpetrating the attacks, but the civilian population, and this is somehow just?

It's like everyone has forgotten the lessons of past generations.

 

[JaysCyYoung]

Disgusting, abhorrent thinking. Any sleight, any damage to Israel is to be met with tremendous amounts of damage...not on the people perpetrating the attacks, but the civilian population, and this is somehow just?

It's like everyone has forgotten the lessons of past generations.

Tell the civilians to stop harbouring terrorist groups and supporting the maintenance of their infrastructure. If the Arabs laid down their weapons today there would be peace in the Middle East. If Israel laid down their arms there would be no Israel. They can't afford to conduct warfare "proportionally" no matter what bleeding hearts like you think.

And I'm guessing the continued existence and survival of their society is a lot more important to them than what some passive Helen Lovejoys in the West think because a few Palestinians die mistakenly.

 

[leafman101]

There was an AMA on Reddit a few days ago with a Palestinian that was really interesting. He basically said "**** hammas, I have no issue living with Jews. I want peace". I suspect most people in the region feel that way.

The Palestinian civilans aren't to blame here. They are victims to terrorists as much as Israel.

Just look at the West Bank. There are some sensitive issues there, but nothing like this. For the most part those relations work well enough.

 

[northernlou]

Understanding What Hamas Wants

The United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA), the institution that cares for Palestinians but whose actual raison d'être is the perpetuation of the stateless status of the descendants of refugees from 1948, recently tweeted this thought to its followers:

“Palestinian children in #Gaza are experiencing severe trauma for the 3rd time in 5 years. The effects are lasting.” Entirely, miserably, true. An alternative to this current horrible reality presented itself in 2005, when the Israeli government—after years of foolish and destructive colonization—expelled thousands of Jewish settlers from Gaza and then withdrew its army. The Palestinian leadership could have taken the opportunity created by the Israeli withdrawal to build the nucleus of a state. Instead, Gaza was converted into a rocket-manufacturing and -launching facility. But here’s a bit of good news:

The people of Gaza, who suffer from Hamas rule, appear to be tired of it. In a recent Pew poll, 63 percent of Gazans surveyed disapproved of Hamas. Perhaps this is because the people have come to realize that Hamas has brought them nothing but grief, sloganeering, and military defeat.

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/07/understanding-what-hamas-wants/374656/

 

[MindzEye]

Proportionality is easy to talk about from the comfort of your own home here.

Meh, it's pretty easy to talk about it from the Jewish side of this conflict as well, where there's been 1 bombing fatality in all of this. Yeah, I'd be pretty comfortable with those odds.


Its not like Israel's first reaction is to wipe out all of the Palestinians. They could easily do that, even now. But they aren't. They don't want that.

That amount of rockets continually being launched into your nation isn't something that you should have to stand by because you are stronger than them.

I'm not suggesting that they do nothing. I'm entirely cool with them putting boots on the ground, targeting Hamas' ability to do this. Target weapons stores, target Hamas leadership, use their very well funded intelligence apparatus to provide the IDF with the intel they need to find and eliminate Hamas targets on the ground with minimal collateral damage. If there's weapons being stored in a hospital...by all means take control of the hospital and remove the weapons instead of bombing the hospital.

What do you think the US would do if we started launching rockets at them. Or what would Canada do if some native reserve started launching rockets?

Nuke them from orbit...it's the only way to be sure, right?

And they've been telling everyone where they are going and when to save as many civilian lives as they can. Most nations don't go to those kind of lengths in situations like this. There could be a lot more than 500 casualties right now. There are 1.8 million people in Gaza.

Heh. "you have 3 minutes to evacuate your home"....and go where?

 

[MindzEye]

There was an AMA on Reddit a few days ago with a Palestinian that was really interesting. He basically said "**** hammas, I have no issue living with Jews. I want peace". I suspect most people in the region feel that way.

The Palestinian civilans aren't to blame here. They are victims to terrorists as much as Israel.

Just look at the West Bank. There are some sensitive issues there, but nothing like this. For the most part those relations work well enough.

Yeah, I read that as well. Was extremely interesting.

 

[MindzEye]

Tell the civilians to stop harbouring terrorist groups

Ahh, so it's the civilians fault. The people with no weapons, no power, no control. It's their fault. Gotcha

If the Arabs laid down their weapons today there would be peace in the Middle East.

Would there? Or would there be a lot more Jewish settlements on disputed land? It seems that the beat goes on whenever there is a ceasefire. The rockets stop and the IDF moves from Gaza, to disputed territories to protect further jewish settlements

If Israel laid down their arms there would be no Israel.

Which is why I've never suggested it. They've done some brilliant work with the iron dome, which has ostensibly make the home made hamas rockets useless as much more than an annoyance to the IDF.

They can't afford to conduct warfare "proportionally" no matter what bleeding hearts like you think.

Ummm...why can't they? They're facing an enemy with no resources, no real weaponry, no infrastructure. Their enemy is capable of loosing everything that have at Israel and killing maybe a dozen civilians. This is like arguing that you can't be proportional in a fight against a child with a stick, because the end of the stick looks a little jagged a pointy, so we better boot **** the kid into a coma, right?

lol...bleeding hearts like me. I'd pound you into a find paste in person if you said that to my face and you know it. ****ing keyboard commando.

 

[JaysCyYoung]

INTERNET TOUGH GUY. UH OH.

 

[JaysCyYoung]

And did you ever consider that those "dozen civilians" are worth more to Israel than several thousand Palestinians? I'd consider my own citizens far more valuable as well, particularly when there are 6 million of them surrounded by 330 million hostiles.

 

[MindzEye]

INTERNET TOUGH GUY. UH OH.

Meh, you're the one throwing "bleeding heart" bullshit around. I'd make a terrible "bleeding heart" liberal with my lack of aversion to legitimate military intervention and all.

 

[MindzEye]

And did you ever consider that those "dozen civilians" are worth more to Israel than several thousand Palestinians?

I have, and it's pretty repugnant on a human level. Have you missed my entire line of argument here about proportionality? The response should be relative to the threat.

I'd consider my own citizens far more valuable as well, particularly when there are 6 million of them surrounded by 330 million hostiles.

When was the last time any of them rattled Israel's cage beyond a bit of funding for Hamas? I have a hard time seeing why we would conflate this with any sort of broader regional issue that hasn't really been an issue for decades. The Israeli's have nothing to fear from Hamas. An irritation, and frankly, one used to great effect by the Israeli right wing on a political level.