OT: The Official Toronto Raptors Thread
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HabsFan1
Well-known member
Mclemore was a guy I wanted us to pick up last year at the end of the year. You can’t give up that many open threes to anyone in this league. Man if we gave up that many in my league we’d be destroyed. These guys are pros. I love the harden D for short spurts but not the whole game.
MindzEye
Wayward Ditch Pig
He's giving Serge way too much rope. It's like he thinks Serge is part of his championship core and not a guy who played a decent role on a championship team but has probably been passed by a 3 guys in on court impact over the summer. I get that you want to try to get the guy going after a long injury but he's kind of the antithesis of everything that makes this team really good. He can't make open shots with any regularity, doesn't really run the court that well on the break anymore, can't switch out and defend anything, he can't close out perimeter shooters at a high level, etc.
But it's his usage man...26% usage for a guy like Serge is insane. Actually has the 2nd highest USG% on the Raps after Siakam. He's way too willing to chuck any shot that is moderately open.
MindzEye
Wayward Ditch Pig
I get that Serge won a chip here. I get that he's a fan favourite. I get that he's African and that probably carries some level of sentimentality with Masia.
But he's:
1) Not good
2) Expensive
3) Not good
4) He has way more name brand recognition in his name than he brings value on the court.
Give me something like Serge + McCaw + Picks for Gallinari + Noel
Galli would be an excellent addition to this group, he plays the same way we do on the offensive end. Space and ball movement centric who can flat out score. Noel is close to being the perfect modern Raptors centre. Legit game-changer defensively, who has developed into a decent passer (for reference, Serge has a 7.6% assist rate, Noel just under 12% and Gasol 16%). OKC seems to be underutilizing him (stuck behind Adams and all), so he could easily be available. Pending free agent that probably wouldn't cost a ton to keep and would be a pretty obvious heir apparent to Marc for the starting role here.
Yeah..that's the trade I want. Galli and Noel.
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MindzEye
Wayward Ditch Pig
Jrue is signed long(er) term to mentor their kids and isn't on the market for any sort of reasonable price. They love him. Galli is definitely available at rental rates. Whatever we lose defensively by giving Galli minutes at the 3-4, we make up by slotting Noel in as Gasol's backup. I also wouldn't put it past Nurse to be able to hide some of Galli's defensive shortcomings.
MyNameIsJonas
Well-known member
Derrick Rose and Thon Maker plan B
MindzEye
Wayward Ditch Pig
I'd rather just find minutes for what we have at that point. Galli and Noel could be legit pieces rolling into the playoffs, and locking up Nerlens long term would be smart business given the type of money centres have been getting these days (and how defensively dominant it looks like he can be in an expanded role). Maker might be a scrub and Rose is a great story and a legit bench weapon offensively, but if Galli doesn't defend, I don't know how to describe how weak Rose is defensively. He's Demar bad defensively.
MyNameIsJonas
Well-known member
What about Tristan Thompson? SI says we are heavily interested and Grange suggests a deal could be done with Powell as the salary + whatever going the other way
MindzEye
Wayward Ditch Pig
Yeah, I've got all sorts of love for Mr Kardashian. Norm has been outplayed by Davis for that 1st guard off the bench role (and he's a better combo guard that Norm is as well...Davis can legit play either spot). Thomas is better as that pure shooter off the bench as well. Tristan is a legit plus defender and a legit plus-plus rebounder.
Though, that move would absolutely have to come with a Serge move. Both are C's. TT would be a pretty cheap re sign in Toronto too you'd have to think.
The trade would fall under the 125% rule, so we would have to send about 14.85 million the other way. Norm is 10.12. So add one of McCaw (4.0) or Johnson (3.62) on to that and then a warm body like Hamilton or Miller and you're there.
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HabsFan1
Well-known member
Hate to say it. Lowry and Serge coming back Fucked with the mojo they had going. I realize we lost to two really good teams and it takes a while for all to settle back in. I ain’t suggesting we are a better team without them. But man it was enjoyable to watch the hustle. I’d like to see more of RHJ than 11 minutes.
MindzEye
Wayward Ditch Pig
Serge has been terrible. Lowry was bad in his first game back, but beasting against Houston. Serge is stealing minutes from Boucher that Boucher has earned imo. He's basically taken Serge's job if we're going on pure merit.
I would really like a trade to shake the roster up right now. We just have too many bodies and our "okay, just okay" veterans are in the way of younger players who are probably already better. Serge and Norm would fetch quite a bit in return. It was always inevitable that we were going to have to move on from the veteran group that won the title. Sell them while the championship stink is still on them. Sell them to teams that will be happy to re sign them to over priced contracts that they can both ride their careers out on. Nothing but happy memories boys, but Boucher, Davis, & Thomas need minutes. Not to mention what we might be able to get back for either.
zeke
Well-known member
Lowry 37.2mpg, 22.5usg%, +3.3bpm, +5.3raptor
Siakam 36.9mpg, 29.3usg%, +2.3bpm, +3.0raptor
Fred 37.8mpg, 21.6usg%, +2.9bpm, +1.4raptor
3 impact full-minute starters, 1 legit elite.
OG 29.3mpg, 14.5usg%, +3.4bpm, +3.9raptor
Gasol 28.7mpg, 12.1usg%, +1.3bpm, +0.9raptor
Norm 28.2mpg, 19.2usg%, +0.6bpm, -2.5raptor
Serge 22.1mpg, 27.0usg%, -2.1bpm, -1.3raptor
4 platoonish starters. OG has been great. Gasol weak offensively but still elite defensively. While Norm and Serge have the ONLY negative ratings of the rotation players, and they are significantly negative.
RHJ 21.3mpg, 17.7usg%, +2.3bpm, +3.1raptor
Davis 15.8mpg, 16.5usg%, +2.8bpm, +4.9raptor
Boucher 12.3mpg, 19.4usg%, +3.6bpm, +6.4raptor
Super-elite bench impact from this trio. Obviously, that would fade with greater usage, and maybe it's just a fluke short term thing completely - but as of now, they should be getting a chance to continue having this kind of impact. But Boucher has been cut out completely, and RHJ and Davis cut back considerably, while Nurse doubles down on Norm and Serge.
What makes it more frustrating is that Norm and Serge don't have the history to justify this kind of faith.
Last year:
Serge: +0.5bpm, -0.4rpm, +0.0raptor
Norm: -0.7bpm, -0.5rpm, -1.3raptor
Year before:
Serge: -0.2bpm, +0.7rpm, -1.2raptor
Norm: -2.8bpm, -3.7rpm, -4.6raptor
Serge has been decent, especially used in favorable matchups as a center. Norm,of course, has been terrible prior to this year, and even this year the numbers are just ok overall - and raptor still thinks he's really bad.
This is not at all like showing faith in Fred last year when he was sorta killing us at times, including the first 2 rounds of the playoffs:
Last Year: +0.0bpm, +1.7rpm, +0.3raptor
Year Before: +1.9bpm, +3.4rpm, +4.1raptor
Last year even when he was struggling Fred was still decent, and the year before he had been awesome. So waiting on him made sense.
But with Serge and Norm, even when playing well they're marginal players, and when they're struggling they're no good at all.
as of right now, we would likely be better off if Nurse used Norm and Serge as the #9 and #10 guys, not the #6 and #7.
Now that might change going forward, and the new guys may fade while norm and serge improve, but right now, imo it's a real shame that Nurse kinda just torpedoed what was a really, really good thing for us and was looking like it was driving us to some new heights as a team.
Siakam 36.9mpg, 29.3usg%, +2.3bpm, +3.0raptor
Fred 37.8mpg, 21.6usg%, +2.9bpm, +1.4raptor
3 impact full-minute starters, 1 legit elite.
OG 29.3mpg, 14.5usg%, +3.4bpm, +3.9raptor
Gasol 28.7mpg, 12.1usg%, +1.3bpm, +0.9raptor
Norm 28.2mpg, 19.2usg%, +0.6bpm, -2.5raptor
Serge 22.1mpg, 27.0usg%, -2.1bpm, -1.3raptor
4 platoonish starters. OG has been great. Gasol weak offensively but still elite defensively. While Norm and Serge have the ONLY negative ratings of the rotation players, and they are significantly negative.
RHJ 21.3mpg, 17.7usg%, +2.3bpm, +3.1raptor
Davis 15.8mpg, 16.5usg%, +2.8bpm, +4.9raptor
Boucher 12.3mpg, 19.4usg%, +3.6bpm, +6.4raptor
Super-elite bench impact from this trio. Obviously, that would fade with greater usage, and maybe it's just a fluke short term thing completely - but as of now, they should be getting a chance to continue having this kind of impact. But Boucher has been cut out completely, and RHJ and Davis cut back considerably, while Nurse doubles down on Norm and Serge.
What makes it more frustrating is that Norm and Serge don't have the history to justify this kind of faith.
Last year:
Serge: +0.5bpm, -0.4rpm, +0.0raptor
Norm: -0.7bpm, -0.5rpm, -1.3raptor
Year before:
Serge: -0.2bpm, +0.7rpm, -1.2raptor
Norm: -2.8bpm, -3.7rpm, -4.6raptor
Serge has been decent, especially used in favorable matchups as a center. Norm,of course, has been terrible prior to this year, and even this year the numbers are just ok overall - and raptor still thinks he's really bad.
This is not at all like showing faith in Fred last year when he was sorta killing us at times, including the first 2 rounds of the playoffs:
Last Year: +0.0bpm, +1.7rpm, +0.3raptor
Year Before: +1.9bpm, +3.4rpm, +4.1raptor
Last year even when he was struggling Fred was still decent, and the year before he had been awesome. So waiting on him made sense.
But with Serge and Norm, even when playing well they're marginal players, and when they're struggling they're no good at all.
as of right now, we would likely be better off if Nurse used Norm and Serge as the #9 and #10 guys, not the #6 and #7.
Now that might change going forward, and the new guys may fade while norm and serge improve, but right now, imo it's a real shame that Nurse kinda just torpedoed what was a really, really good thing for us and was looking like it was driving us to some new heights as a team.
MindzEye
Wayward Ditch Pig
I think a couple of things are playing into the usage
1) Tradeability: I think Masai and the brain trust knows the truth here, that they're not paying Serge to stay, and that Norm is likely to opt out to try to land one last legit pay day for his career. Someone will probably give Norm 3-4 years at 15+ as a 3&D guard with veteran leadership, etc. But if you're going to get value for them, they need to be shown contributing.
2) Gud Pro championship stink: With the above said, it's tough to overcome confirmation bias in coaching decisions. Nurse has gone to the wall with these guys, they're good veterans who have come through in big situations on the way to a title. It's tough for a coach to not respect that and believe that the best version of his team (which won a title 6 months ago) includes those 2 playing minutes and contributing.
1) Tradeability: I think Masai and the brain trust knows the truth here, that they're not paying Serge to stay, and that Norm is likely to opt out to try to land one last legit pay day for his career. Someone will probably give Norm 3-4 years at 15+ as a 3&D guard with veteran leadership, etc. But if you're going to get value for them, they need to be shown contributing.
2) Gud Pro championship stink: With the above said, it's tough to overcome confirmation bias in coaching decisions. Nurse has gone to the wall with these guys, they're good veterans who have come through in big situations on the way to a title. It's tough for a coach to not respect that and believe that the best version of his team (which won a title 6 months ago) includes those 2 playing minutes and contributing.