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OT: The Toronto Blue Jays

Yeah, anyone who votes for Fried and his 15-5 record ahead of Skubal and his 12-4 needs their voting privileges revoked. Similar anyone who prefers Freddy Peralta (16-5) over Skenes (10-9). I mean, sure, if Skenes has like 3 bad starts in a row where he gives up 5 runs each time, and Peralta pitches a couple shutouts, I'll concede the arguments. It's a fine tie-breaker, everything being equal. But it means diddly.
 
No one is debating 15-5 versus 12-4. But 15-5 versus say 7-10. There’s no way the 7-10 guy is getting the award even if his other stats are significantly better.
 
axlsalinger said:
Look, I still have a soft spot for the win, since it's still used in many fantasy leagues. But trust me, it's no longer relevant as a way to evaluate anything. I am willing to say it's not "completely useless", if you will join us in agreeing that it's "mostly useless".
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It’s not be all and end all, and of course it can be deceiving because a guy could get 20 wins and have a 5.00 era. But we don’t usually see a pitcher with lots of wins and totally shit stats.
 
You know wins are a team stat right?

So good pitchers on good teams will have a lot of wins because good teams win a lot.

But how can you judge great pitchers on bad teams by pitcher wins when bad teams lose a lot.

And normally, good pitchers match up against the other teams good pitchers. Soooo......
 
UWHabs said:
Yeah, anyone who votes for Fried and his 15-5 record ahead of Skubal and his 12-4 needs their voting privileges revoked. Similar anyone who prefers Freddy Peralta (16-5) over Skenes (10-9). I mean, sure, if Skenes has like 3 bad starts in a row where he gives up 5 runs each time, and Peralta pitches a couple shutouts, I'll concede the arguments. It's a fine tie-breaker, everything being equal. But it means diddly.
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Skenes is the top pitcher in MLB and easily be the top pitcher picked to start a franchise
 
I don't think wins are totally useless under certain contexts. Like, a starter who has good nerdies and gets a lot of W's because they're throwing deeper into games than other starters, can pitch in higher leverage middle and late innings the 3rd-4th time through the order without needing to be pulled, etc...think prime Roy or Hentgen...that's closes a bunch of the gap of a ~6 inning elite nerdies darling imo.
 
MindzEye said:
I don't think wins are totally useless under certain contexts. Like, a starter who has good nerdies and gets a lot of W's because they're throwing deeper into games than other starters, can pitch in higher leverage middle and late innings the 3rd-4th time through the order without needing to be pulled, etc...think prime Roy or Hentgen...that's closes a bunch of the gap of a ~6 inning elite nerdies darling imo.
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thankfully we have WAR to account for IP and leverage differences.
 
zeke said:
thankfully we have WAR to account for IP and leverage differences.
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Leverage adjustment is only for relievers, no? Also, whose WAR matters a lot. FWar lets FIP do the heavy lifting, which is just one of the DIPS metrics that could be argued over.
 
Yeah, I mean, all things being equal, a pitcher getting a win is better than them getting a loss. There are some cases - if someone can go 7 every game, and someone else is only going 5, the guy going 7 will have more chances for some of those wins.

But yeah, they'd have more innings, and more chance to rope in WAR anyways from that, so we don't need wins to account for that.
 
wins didn’t matter when pitchers used to be allowed to pitch deep in games either.

How many times did a better pitcher lose a cy young because they didn’t have 20 wins.
 
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