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OT: The Toronto Blue Jays

Two key at bats in this game I thought were worth mentioning:

1) Lind's 1st inning at bat with 2risp and 2-out. Choking out there would have been the norm for the Jays, and would have surprised nobody. Might have let Verlander settled in and we might not have been able to pile the runs on him. But in the first clutch at bat of the jays season, Lind comes through and drives in both runs, setting the table to the rest of the game.

2) Scutaro leadoff at bat in the bottom of the 7th. The Tigers had just piled on Roy to get within shouting distance, and there was a little bit of nervousness there. Rincon gets ahead early and the count goes to 0-2 on Scoots.....but Scoots digs in there, fouls a few off, and grinds out a BB in an 8 or 9 pitch at bat. This gets the ball rolling again for the meat of the order and they come through and put the game out of reach.
 
JackBurton said:
What really hurts is this years' Jays team will have a solid offense, and so much better than last season yet their pitching depth is so much weaker than last season.
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But people don't realize how awesome our pitching was last year.

It wasn't just the best pitching in baseball - it was the best pitching in baseball by a COUNTRY MILE.

The jays can suffer a big hit in their pitching this year and STILL be one of the better pitching staffs in baseball.

I mean, you want bad pitching, look at those poor Tigers over there. They had to start Verlander on opening day.
 
zeke said:
But people don't realize how awesome our pitching was last year.

It wasn't just the best pitching in baseball - it was the best pitching in baseball by a COUNTRY MILE.

The jays can suffer a big hit in their pitching this year and STILL be one of the better pitching staffs in baseball.

I mean, you want bad pitching, look at those poor Tigers over there. They had to start Verlander on opening day.
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Agreed, it was the best pitching in baseball but I think it's going to take a huge step back.

Last season was a real missed opportunity. They didn't take advantage of the fantastic pitching because of their horrible offense.
 
I agree that the key to the whole game was that Lind at bat with 2 outs...... Last year was the most frustrating thing in the world watching the jays have risp's and NOTHING would come of it. I honestly believe that they had the leafs losing attitude ingrained in their pysche.

But here comes Lind, who wants to show something, doesn't have that loser mentality, plus Cito who never would allow that loser mentality and you have the potential to wipe away that bad attitude.

Just like the leafs, with Wilson and Burke, and now it's time to rid the players that have that psyche at the draft. Similar to Ottawa.

I hope that Snider, Hill Lind and Rios take over that clubhouse and bring with them Rolen and Overbay... Wells will be the hardest to swing over, but that fat eff, may change things if he gets some early success. Trade that garbage to the Yanks.

Oh and how nice is it to see the Yanks get shelled in game one.. it's only one, but it's the first and confidence is a bitch to get back sometimes.... here's to AJ getting shalacked next.
 
The opposite field HR by Snider was pretty damn impressive. Everyone's on Wieters and Price's *&#$ this season for ROY but I think Snider is the favourite.
 
zeke said:
But people don't realize how awesome our pitching was last year.

It wasn't just the best pitching in baseball - it was the best pitching in baseball by a COUNTRY MILE.

The jays can suffer a big hit in their pitching this year and STILL be one of the better pitching staffs in baseball.

I mean, you want bad pitching, look at those poor Tigers over there. They had to start Verlander on opening day.
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the rotation took a huge hit, but the bullpen is just as good if not even better than last year and its not even fully healthly.
 
JackBurton said:
Agreed, it was the best pitching in baseball but I think it's going to take a huge step back.

Last season was a real missed opportunity. They didn't take advantage of the fantastic pitching because of their horrible offense.
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Honestly, we still have the best 1-2 starting punch in baseball from last year, and the best bullpen in baseball from last year.

We've lost Burnett for the whole year, and McGowan and Marcum for at least much of the year.....but we're also adding in Janssen and Accardo (who were flat out our two best relievers 2 years ago before missing last year to injury) and have a bunch of very talented kids with the potential to step in and produce.

The pitching will drop, but IMO at the very worst it will be average, and more likely well above average.

If you replace all the innings Burnett, McGowan, and Marcum pitched last year with a 6.00era, the Jays would STILL have been a well above average pitching staff overall.
 
Snider is an absolute monster. A whole new level of beastly.

I know it's been said a million times, but Cito makes a world of difference with these guys' approach at the plate. They are much more aggressive, and they look a lot less afraid, especially with RISP.


And in regards to the pitching, I disagree with you there zeke. We have lost our #2-4 pitchers from last year, and have replaced them with a journey-man minor leaguer, and a couple of rookies that have yet to prove that they can fill in the void. We still have Halladay giving us the goods every 5th game, but we will have trouble hitting our way out of trouble if Purcey and Romero don't show an exceptional learning curve.

I'm optimistic, but I don't see us coming even close to the pitching we got last year. Couple that with Ryan's velocity troubles, and you can add the bullpen as another question mark this year.
 
Litch is right now, with Purcey as a dark-horse if things go well.

Either way, that's a huge downgrade from the year that Burnett had last year, and #3-4 will be a huge downgrade to what Marcum and McGowan brought forth.
 
Well, last night was pretty awesome. Who would think Doc would give up 5 and we'd still win? May well be a sign of things to come this year. If the offence is that good, maybe the pitching just needs to be decent.

And who knows, maybe Purcey and Romero can be this year's surprise Marcum and McGowan.
 
Again, people don't realize just how awesome our pitching was last year.

(and people don't realize as well just how good Litsch was last year, every bit as good as Burnett or Marcum were).

Burnett, Marcum, and McGowan combined for 484.0ip of 3.92era.

If we replaced those innings with a 5.00era, then the team's ERA would have risen from 3.49 all the way to 3.85 - which would have been the 3rd best ERA in baseball, and 2nd in the AL only to the Rays' 3.82.

If we replaced those innings with a 6.00era, then the team's ERA would have risen from 3.49 all the way to 4.19 - which would have placed them 13th in baseball and 7th in the AL.

Personally, I think the collection of 6-8 young talents we have to fill those 3 spots (Purcey, Janssen, Romero, Cecil, Mills, Richmond and maybe Marcum and McGowan) will likely give us an ERA closer to 5.00 than to 6.00. In fact, they might just give us an ERA better than 5.00 in those innings.
 
If these guys can remain in the hunt, and have those two guys possible make an August/September return, we could be in the running for a real playoff run.

Wishful thinking though, as both seem to have had setbacks and September seems to be the best case scenario for both.
 
I don't think its fair to call Litsch the #2 pitcher last year, considering he pitched 50 less innings than Burnett, and only had a couple more starts that Marcum. The jays do have the best #1 pitcher in baseball, a decent middle of the rotation guy, and two young, former first round picks, with pretty solid stuff.

It could be worse, but its a whole hell of a lot worse than having Burnett, Marcum and McGowan, who are three top of the rotation pitchers.

But last year neither Marcum or McGowan pitched a full season, so they aren't replacing two 200+ inning pitchers from last year in them.
 
leaffan2005 said:
Litch is right now, with Purcey as a dark-horse if things go well.

Either way, that's a huge downgrade from the year that Burnett had last year, and #3-4 will be a huge downgrade to what Marcum and McGowan brought forth.
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Huge downgrade?

Last year:

Burnett: 35gms, 221.1ip, 6.2ip/gs, 18-10, 1.34whip, 4.07era
Litsch: 29gms, 176.0ip, 6.1ip/gs, 13-9, 1.23whip, 3.58era

Litsch was a full half-run better than Burnett last year.

Burnett had a few more starts than Litsch, but otherwise Litsch was flat out better.

In fact, Litsch had a better year last year than pretty much any projected #2 starter in all of baseball this year.
 
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zeke said:
Again, people don't realize just how awesome our pitching was last year.

(and people don't realize as well just how good Litsch was last year, every bit as good as Burnett or Marcum were).

Burnett, Marcum, and McGowan combined for 484.0ip of 3.92era.

If we replaced those innings with a 5.00era, then the team's ERA would have risen from 3.49 all the way to 3.85 - which would have been the 3rd best ERA in baseball, and 2nd in the AL only to the Rays' 3.82.

If we replaced those innings with a 6.00era, then the team's ERA would have risen from 3.49 all the way to 4.19 - which would have placed them 13th in baseball and 7th in the AL.

Personally, I think the collection of 6-8 young talents we have to fill those 3 spots (Purcey, Janssen, Romero, Cecil, Mills, Richmond and maybe Marcum and McGowan) will likely give us an ERA closer to 5.00 than to 6.00. In fact, they might just give us an ERA better than 5.00 in those innings.
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you're getting lost in a pile of stats again. Halladay is the best #1 in baseball, but theres no way halladay/litsch or halladay/purcey is the best 1-2
 
rated said:
you're getting lost in a pile of stats again. Halladay is the best #1 in baseball, but theres no way halladay/litsch or halladay/purcey is the best 1-2
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Name me the better #2s than Litsch, or the better 1-2s than halladay/litsch.

Not sure why litsch gets crapped on here in Toronto - if he played in Boston or New York he'd be properly heralded as one of the best young pitchers in baseball. What he's done at ages 22-23 is pretty remarkable, and he's only improved as time has gone on and added to his repertoire. He was pretty much unhittable to end the season last year after his brief 2-start rookie wake-up call send down to AAA by Cito.

And I don't know what "lost in stats" means, but those stats clearly show just how damn good the Jays' pitching was last year, and exactly what we can expect from it even if we get crappy replacement innings for those given to us by Burnett/Marcum/McGowan last year.
 
zeke said:
Name me the better #2s than Litsch, or the better 1-2s than halladay/litsch.

Not sure why litsch gets crapped on here in Toronto - if he played in Boston or New York he'd be properly heralded as one of the best young pitchers in baseball. What he's done at ages 22-23 is pretty remarkable, and he's only improved as time has gone on and added to his repertoire. He was pretty much unhittable to end the season last year after his brief 2-start rookie wake-up call send down to AAA by Cito.

And I don't know what "lost in stats" means, but those stats clearly show just how damn good the Jays' pitching was last year, and exactly what we can expect from it even if we get crappy replacement innings for those given to us by Burnett/Marcum/McGowan last year.
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you just dont get it. no ones crapping on litsch, or least they shouldnt be. hes good and hes come a long way. you're just being ver generous and making him out to be better than he is.

i agree'd with everything in your post except for the 1-2 punch thing. the jays had the best rotation last year, they still have by far the best bullpen this year.
 
well, it depends on how good he is.

If he's 3.58ERA 1.23 WHIP good, well then no, Zeke isn't making him out to be better than he was. 13th in the AL in ERA, 14th in WHIP, & tied for 17th in wins is pretty damn impressive

So....we had a guy who was 2nd in wins, 2nd in ERA, & 1st in Whip...and a guy who was 13th in ERA, 14th in Whip and 17th in wins.

So the question doesn't seem to be whether or not we have one of the best 1-2 punches in baseball, it's whether or not Litsch can repeat the performance. Because if he does give a comparable performance to last year, it's pretty undeniable that we have one of the best 1-2 punches in at least the AL.
 
Litch's BABIP was sustainable (.278), and he has showed similar numbers in the minors, so I think his numbers are sustainable.
 
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