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OT: The Toronto Blue Jays

zeke said:
Upton is great. no doubt.

But we have to make sure we don't hurt ourselves dealing for him.

I would definitely, no doubt argue that we are better now and going forward with Snider + Drabek than with just Upton, for example.
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JaysCyYoung said:
Honestly, I don't get some of you guys. Does Upton have limitations? Sure. All players do. Is there a possible downside to raiding the system and losing alot of depth as a result of any theoretical trade? Absolutely. Was last season concerning? To some it was, but to me I saw a kid who experienced a shoulder injury from which there is a high likelyhood of recovering from and who is a former first overall draft pick just one year removed from being a 21 year-old all-star who put up big numbers at his position when most kids his age don't even see big-league pitching, and who don't have his already substantial levels of experience in the majors.

Is there a risk inherent in this type of deal? Of course. But you guys are always preaching that the Leafs take risks in order to accumulate elite talent and how depth is not as important as upper-echelon players. I agree with that philosophy as well. So why is it now that the Jays have a prime opportunity to nab one of the brightest young stars in the game there is so much wavering about the deal? You pay whatever you can to get talents that are so young with so high a ceiling, especially when they are in your control for five seasons. The Jays are not the Yankees or Red Sox: we cannot go out tomorrow and spend $150 million on free agents and expect to be financially sound. There just isn't the clout for it, so deals like this are the way to go, risk in all. It's the surest path towards contention. We have to be smart and we have to make attempts at these deals when they come along.
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zeke said:
the problem is that you're underrating Snider.
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zeke said:
He has the very, very real potential of being a Dunn or even Delgado type bat.
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MindzEye said:
A .900 OPS would have been 15th in the league last year.

Not in the AL, but in all of MLB.

If Upton is a perennial ~.900 bat, that would be excellent when you factor in his excellent, excellent defence and good speed.

I love Snider as a prospect, a ton of power potential there....but, his offensive potential is at best, the same as Upton's. But then you throw in Upton's D (which is GG calibre, though corner OF'ers rarely get recognized), speed and the fact that he's already started to hit some lofty career milestones.

It would take Upton not improving on what he's already done at the MLB level, and both Drabek + Snider more or less maxing out there potential for that deal to ever become a flop.
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zeke said:
that's not true at all.

Snider could easily be as good as Upton this year.
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MindzEye said:
You're misusing the word "easily"


If healthy, Upton will likely challenge .900 again. If Snider put up an .800 OPS next year, most of us would be happy with his development to this point.
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MyNameIsJonas said:
I'm curious, for the naysayers like Zeke, Msun and leafman.....

what is the MAX, you would trade for Upton?
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zeke said:
I think I've said the kind of package I'd be comfortable with.

Snider + a couple of non-Drabek prospects would be about as high as I go.

Or no Snider or Drabek, but 4-5 of any of the other prospects would work too.
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Oh Zeke.
 
Snider looked like a stud. Just another lesson on why you shouldn't give a shit about trading prospects. Maybe you are trading Jeff Kent. Most of the time you aren't.
 
leafman101 said:
Snider looked like a stud. Just another lesson on why you shouldn't give a shit about trading prospects. Maybe you are trading Jeff Kent. Most of the time you aren't.
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Sure, if you're getting a controllable stud in return. Trade all the ****ing prospects for that. Don't trade elite prospects for rentals though.
 
Of course any bust prospect for anything useful is a great trade. The player Travis Snider could have turned into for a rental though, short of winning a WS due to it, would be a ****ing disaster.

Snider even turning in a meh starting LF'er would have been a bad outcome in your scenario. Analysing anything in retrospect is pretty easy.
 
Yeah, but thats the point. Most prospects don't turn into the players they could turn into in baseball. Capitalize on their value while its high.

You will end up trading way more Travis Sniders than Jeff Kents.
 
leafman101 said:
Yeah, but thats the point. Most prospects don't turn into the players they could turn into in baseball. Capitalize on their value while its high.

You will end up trading way more Travis Sniders than Jeff Kents.
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You don't maximize that value by trading for rentals though. You maximize it by trading for controllable players either in or before their prime years. If you trade a future stud for someone you have for a few months (Jeff Kent...) you'll be talking about it 20 years later. If you trade a future stud for someone who played in your organization for 4-7 years, helped you win some playoff games, etc, nobody gives a ****.
 
zeke said:
I'd never take back the Jeff Kent trade.
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Neither would I, but only because the team won.

Cone's individual contribution in the playoffs wasn't worth it though

1-1 6.85 K/9 5.24 BB/9

We could likely have landed similar or better individual contribution for less than a future perennial all star.

But yeah, **** it, we won, all is forgiven.
 
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