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I'm not hanging my hat on anything. Of course Phaneuf misses the net. All players who shoot a lot will do that.

However, he doesn't miss it any more than other guys taking lots of shots and its hardly a problem.
 
The Leafs are watched by so many it makes Phaneuf's shots missed on net get much more attention and seem more than anyone else.
 
Kessel's Rank in missed shots
2012-13 - 51 (t - 6th)
2011-12 - 70 (t - 22nd)
2010-11 - 85 (t - 5th)
2009-10 - 77 (9th)

Guys who shoot a ton, miss the net a ton. Thats fine though. You don't want them shooting less.

Guys like Kessel and Phaneuf should be firing pucks.
 
It's not that at all, and it's not unfair.

He takes a lot of shots, and he misses a lot of shots.

No one is out to lunch by thinking that, because it's true.
 
You err in thinking that missing is a negative though. If he's taking a lot of shots it means that the Leafs have possession and they're in the opponents' end a lot.

That's a very positive thing.
 
leafman101 said:
Kessel's Rank in missed shots
2012-13 - 51 (t - 6th)
2011-12 - 70 (t - 22nd)
2010-11 - 85 (t - 5th)
2009-10 - 77 (9th)

Guys who shoot a ton, miss the net a ton. Thats fine though. You don't want them shooting less.

Guys like Kessel and Phaneuf should be firing pucks.
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Don't compare forwards, who buzz around the net.

Front line dmen who shoot from the point and need to hit the net are a different story.

I'm mostly playing devil's advocate on this one. I already said I like Phaneuf, but I do think he's overrated by this board.

He's good, but not captain and undisputed #1 dman good.
 
JaysCyYoung said:
You err in thinking that missing is a negative though. If he's taking a lot of shots it means that the Leafs have possession and they're in the opponents' end a lot.

That's a very positive thing.
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It's negative if you're on the PP and the main guy shooting from the point keeps firing wide.

I feel like we see that a lot with him.
 
LeafOfFaith said:
It's negative if you're on the PP and the main guy shooting from the point keeps firing wide.

I feel like we see that a lot with him.
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That can lead to rebounds and high-percentage offensive chances in front of the net. Especially if the puck bounces off the boards into the slot area.
 
Look, it's like you have Karlsson and you have Phaneuf, for instance.

Who would any GM prefer? It's undisputed. That's what I mean. Phaneuf is not an undisputed #1. If you put him on many teams, he's not the best dman they have.

In fact, on our own team he may be only the third best right now.
 
LeafOfFaith said:
Look, it's like you have Karlsson and you have Phaneuf, for instance.

Who would any GM prefer? It's undisputed. That's what I mean. Phaneuf is not an undisputed #1. If you put him on many teams, he's not the best dman they have.
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This is an asinine argument.

Karlsson is in the argument for the best defender in the world. Therefore Phaneuf isn't a number one defender by his own admission?

I would have rather had Chris Pronger than Nicklas Lidstrom between 1999 and 2001. That doesn't mean that Lidstrom wasn't a number one blueliner those seasons.

In fact, on our own team he may be only the third best right now.
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Now you're overrating Dion. He's probably the fifth best defender on Team Canada at best. There's no rationale for ranking him higher than that.

Third best is probably Keith or Letang.
 
Who are captain and undisputed #1 dmen good? Chara? Lidstrom? Weber? Suter?

2012-13
Chara - 38
Weber - 33
Phaneuf - 24
Letang - 23
Larsson - 22
Subban - 22
Suter - 15

2011-12
Weber - 71
Karlsson - 64
Phaneuf - 60
Chara - 57
Larsson - 54
Subban - 42
Lidstrom - 40
Suter - 31
Letang - 30

2010-11
Weber - 74
Chara - 65
Letang - 56
Phaneuf - 56
Karlsson - 45
Subban - 45
Lidstrom - 42
Suter - 31


Maybe Phaneuf isn't captian, undisputed #1 good, but it certainly isn't because of missed shots.
 
JaysCyYoung said:
This is an asinine argument.

Karlsson is in the argument for the best defender in the world. Therefore Phaneuf isn't a number one defender by his own admission?

I would have rather had Chris Pronger than Nicklas Lidstrom between 1999 and 2001. That doesn't mean that Lidstrom wasn't a number one blueliner those seasons.
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If you were an argument, you'd be an asinine argument.

Do you understand a point, rather than latch onto the extreme?

Karlsson is probably the best, but the point is made, and doesn't it hold true for other dmen not named Karlsson?

Letang? Subban? Suter?



Now you're overrating Dion. He's probably the fifth best defender on Team Canada at best. There's no rationale for ranking him higher than that.

Third best is probably Keith or Letang.
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I was talking about the Leafs.

Right now, I would rather keep Gardiner and Franson over Phaneuf if it came down to having to pick two of the three.
 
LeafOfFaith said:
Look, it's like you have Karlsson and you have Phaneuf, for instance.

Who would any GM prefer? It's undisputed. That's what I mean. Phaneuf is not an undisputed #1. If you put him on many teams, he's not the best dman they have.
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Funny you would stop that list with one name. There sure as hell aren't too many guys like Karlsson teams would take over Phaneuf. Maybe 5-10.

Besides I'd take Crosby over Kessel, does that mean Kessel isn't an undisputed top line forward? We're talking about A #1 dman, not THE #1 dman in the NHL.
 
There's only a handful of teams you can put Kessel on where he wouldn't be the best forward.

Not sure the same can be said about Phaneuf.

Keeping in mind that the primary function of a top line forward is offense, while that naturally isn't the case with a top line dman.
 
LeafOfFaith said:
If you were an argument, you'd be an asinine argument.

Do you understand a point, rather than latch onto the extreme?

Karlsson is probably the best, but the point is made, and doesn't it hold true for other dmen not named Karlsson?

Letang? Subban? Suter?
Click to expand...

The only thing extreme was your original position. It's an absurd point. You're saying that if you're not one of the five best defenders in the league you're not a number one.

Personally I think Phaneuf is in the 7 to 9 range, and all are certifiable number one defenders. Without question.

I was talking about the Leafs.

Right now, I would rather keep Gardiner and Franson over Phaneuf if it came down to having to pick two of the three.
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The Toronto Maple Leafs Hockey Club or the Interleague Baseball team?
 
LeafOfFaith said:
There's only a handful of teams you can put Kessel on where he wouldn't be the best forward.

Not sure the same can be said about Phaneuf.

Keeping in mind that the primary function of a top line forward is offense, while that naturally isn't the case with a top line dman.
Click to expand...

There are far more teams where Kessel wouldn't be the best forward than the very few teams where Phaneuf wouldn't be the best defender.
 
Pittsburgh - Letang
Montreal - Subban
Washington - Green
Boston - Chara
Ny Rangers - Girardi
Ottawa - Karlsson
NY Islanders - Visnovsky
Winnipeg - Byfuglien
Philly - Striet
New Jersey - Zidlicky
Buffalo - Erhoff
Carolina - Faulk
Tampa - Hedman
Florida - Campbell
Chicago - Keith
Anaheim - Beauchemin
Vancouver - Edler
St. Louis - Pietrangalo
Los Angelas - Doughty
San Jose - Boyle
Detroit - Kronwall
Minnesota - Suter
Columbus - Johnson
Phoenix - Ekman-Larsson
Dallas - Robidas
Edmonton - Schultz
Calgary - Wideman
Nashville - Weber
Colorado - E. Johnson

Phaneuf would easily be the top dmen on Colorado (E. Johnson), Calgary (Wideman), Edmonton (Schultz), Dallas (Robidas), Columbus (J Johnson), Detroit (Kronwall), San Jose (Boyle), Vancouver (Edler), Anaheim (Beauchemin), Florida (Campbell), Tampa (Hedman), Carolina (Faulk), Buffalo (Erhoff), New Jersey (Zidlicky), Philly (Strait), Islanders (Visnovsky), Rangers (Girardi), Winnipeg (Byfuglien) and Toronto .

That is 19/30 teams in the NHL. And there are some debatable ones in the remaining 11 (Subban, Green, Keith, Doughty, Pietrangalo). Personally I'd even argue about Letang and Weber.

Undisputed #1 shit right there.

Conveniently, not only did I peg Phaneuf 11th best dman (at worst), but he was 11th in Norris voting this year too.

Like I said. 5-10 guys you'd maybe take over him.
 
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JaysCyYoung said:
The only thing extreme was your original position. It's an absurd point. You're saying that if you're not one of the five best defenders in the league you're not a number one.

Personally I think Phaneuf is in the 7 to 9 range, and all are certifiable number one defenders. Without question.



The Toronto Maple Leafs Hockey Club or the Interleague Baseball team?
Click to expand...

Are you supposed to be funny or something?

Let me know.
 
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