Leafs/Habs/Sens 2014-15
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Leafin'
Well-known member
As painful as it is to admit for me Ottawa is in a better organizational situation then we are at the moment. I can honestly say that i like their team better than ours right now. That will hopefully change with Shanahan at the helm.
No bias. It just feels as though the Sens prospects have taken larger steps forward than any of the Leafs prospects(on the big club). Karlsson is the best player on either team. Where our guys have completely given up, the Sens players have shown some fight and resiliency to compete. Ottawa and Toronto were pretty close a couple months ago. 1 teams completely gave up and folded, the other is putting up a decent fight in hopes of making the playoffs. You don't play hockey to lose and secure draft positions. You play to win. As big a waste of time as some posters seem to call Ottawa's play late into the season it gives them a pretty good base to go off for next season. I can't say it'll get any better for the Leafs next year. And that really saddens me.
No bias. It just feels as though the Sens prospects have taken larger steps forward than any of the Leafs prospects(on the big club). Karlsson is the best player on either team. Where our guys have completely given up, the Sens players have shown some fight and resiliency to compete. Ottawa and Toronto were pretty close a couple months ago. 1 teams completely gave up and folded, the other is putting up a decent fight in hopes of making the playoffs. You don't play hockey to lose and secure draft positions. You play to win. As big a waste of time as some posters seem to call Ottawa's play late into the season it gives them a pretty good base to go off for next season. I can't say it'll get any better for the Leafs next year. And that really saddens me.
KingTucker
Member
Except you have to account for massive regressions by JVR, Kessel and Kadri while they had upswing ticks for their young players while having unsustainable .940ish goaltending from an AHLer. Do they have an all-world D in Karlsson? Absolutely.
He's surrounded by middling partners like Ceci, Wiercioch and bottom-pairing trogs like Borowiecki, Gryba and Cowen. Methot is a #3 on a contending team but complements Karlsson well.
Their forwards are a mixed bag and I'd caution against reading too much from their young forward production though or their run. It's easy to feed off that energy for 30 or so games but when the grind sets in...
At the moment Montreal is the best of our teams. Toronto is obviously stripping it down so will be much worse than the other two and Ottawa will be middling to upper middling (7-11, maybe a little higher), but again if their goaltending drops to .920 or .915 from .930+ that's some lost points in the standings.
And their GM is at the end of his lifespan so he'll need to be replaced. Not really seeing the "better organizational situation".
He's surrounded by middling partners like Ceci, Wiercioch and bottom-pairing trogs like Borowiecki, Gryba and Cowen. Methot is a #3 on a contending team but complements Karlsson well.
Their forwards are a mixed bag and I'd caution against reading too much from their young forward production though or their run. It's easy to feed off that energy for 30 or so games but when the grind sets in...
At the moment Montreal is the best of our teams. Toronto is obviously stripping it down so will be much worse than the other two and Ottawa will be middling to upper middling (7-11, maybe a little higher), but again if their goaltending drops to .920 or .915 from .930+ that's some lost points in the standings.
And their GM is at the end of his lifespan so he'll need to be replaced. Not really seeing the "better organizational situation".
corksens
Legend
I won't be. But winning is good and this team has found a way to win alot of games with some clutch performances from young up-and-coming players.
I don't think this is a 130 point team. But I think this current core has the potential to be a 6th-9th place team and a few pieces away from competing for home ice in the next 2 years.
corksens
Legend
They certainly regressed offensively - but it did expose some scary realities in what kind of effort and drive these guys have. Remember, this is the same core that has some pretty significant meltdowns.
.937% - which is certainly unsustainable, but we don't claim to be a 135 point team.
Also, take a look at the last 10 games that I posted for Hammond. The team is still winning with and without elite goaltending.
Ceci is "middling"? If that is actually your opinion of him as a player then I'm not sure why I would bother responding further. A 3rd pairing of Cowen/Weircoch/Gryba/Boroweicki is fine. I've long maintained that Ottawa needs one top-4 defenseman. Hopefully they can go out and buy one.
Or you can not be a complete homer and recognize progression of players in their early 20's.
So Montreal is in the best position, why? They also have ridden unsustainable goaltending the entire season. I don't expect Price to drop to .900% - but he won't be a .930%+ guy year in and year out. Defensively they are below average, and offensively they are average. You are completely talking out of both sides of your mouth here.
Because you are a raging homer.
Wayward DP
Well-known member
Much as I love to disagree with you, I think this is a pretty fair assessment.
However, as a Leafs fan, I take solace in the fact that you guys are owned by Eugene Melnyk. I honestly think that's a huge barrier to those "few pieces away". And, also, your use of the word "potential" is key to my support.
Leafin'
Well-known member
There is too much of that for me to respond.
The Leafs have a lot of individual talent. Something is fundamentally wrong with this team. Maybe the players don't like eachother. Maybe there are groups of divide in the locker room. If we break down player by player the Leafs might have "better" players than Ottawa but that group has shown a lot more fight than ours. I don't care about better players i care about better team. W - L - OTL is the one statistic that matters. Where Ottawa has seen growth from the season before where they moved their captain and best forward in Spezza. The Leafs have regressed while allegedly being more mature with age. The draft is a crap shoot so saying that we are better off because we have the 5th pick over the 13th or 14th is nonsense. Players bust all over the draft.
At this point i really do not know what management can do to make this team better. Tearing down and stripping the team to me is not a way a team should be built. Where we really need to see an organizational shift is at the draft table. I've said it before but to get better we need to draft better than Biggs, Devane, Ross etc.
KingTucker
Member
Dubas and Mark Hunter are decent enough. Nonis is just a puppet so whatever with him. We already have good young pieces in Rielly and Nylander and we'll end up with one of Strome/Marner in the current draft. If they trade Kessel we'll likely get a good prospect and some salary back. I mean, we're not going to be the 'Hawks in two years but we'll be bleh next year or two with a possible uptick in 2017-2018 to 2018-2019. I have a lot more confidence in Shanny/Dubas/Hunter than I did in Nonis/Loiselle or JFJ/Whomever.
But yeah, we're likely going to eat sand from the Habs and Sens over the next bit. Well, the sand eating will likely be 50/50 between the Ontario teams.
MindzEye
Wayward Ditch Pig
Meh, we've been where the Sens are as an organization. One real all world talent with a bunch of secondary young guys and a few decent veterans, but no way to realistically add the additional elite players necessary to turn them into a legitimate contender level club.
It didn't turn out well for us, and I don't see it turning out well for them. You can argue that where they are is a "better place" to be as an organization, but it's not exactly the place that a contender is built from, so meh.
It didn't turn out well for us, and I don't see it turning out well for them. You can argue that where they are is a "better place" to be as an organization, but it's not exactly the place that a contender is built from, so meh.
Leafin'
Well-known member
When we got Burke there was not a single soul on this forum that didn't believe in him. I believe any one we hire comes here with the intent of doing their best job. Sometimes it just doesn't work out. Shanahan is here right now and the results are still to be seen. Whether that works out for us or not is something we can discuss in 10 years.
We need to be better everywhere.
We need to be better everywhere.
YOU are the only one building a strawman and pretending anyone claimed the Sens are as good as their current run.
Leafin'
Well-known member
We have not been there though. We have not at any point in my life had the best defenseman in the world. Or even an argument worthy contender for the best defenseman in the world. I'm not saying that Ottawa is better because they have Karlsson. I'm saying that their prospect pool is turning out good players year after year. Where are our good prospects? This year who has shown up and provided impact hockey? Holland? Besides Rielly we haven't seen the growth from our young players that we were expecting.
JackBurton
Well-known member
We have to start letting our young players play.
Leafin'
Well-known member
Our young guys need to start earning it. Who was really breaking down the door this season that should've played but didn't? Percy? He was ok at the beginning of the year and has now gone on to have an average AHL season mixed in with some injuries.
F*ck this nonsense of giving players anything. "Let them play"? F*cking earn it. Nylander could've made the team and is probably the only one that would've provided impact hockey but he was also only 18 years old. Nylander was the only guy at camp that earned a spot. Leivo didn't do much. Percy made the team and looked ok.
JackBurton
Well-known member
Why are we letting useless plugs be handed spots? We've been doing this for years. I don't see why young players need to prove more than a waive wire pickup.
And I personally hated the way Percy was handled in October. He was playing very good. Carlyle benches him for no reason other than being the young guy, and then cuts his mintes severely when he returns.
And I personally hated the way Percy was handled in October. He was playing very good. Carlyle benches him for no reason other than being the young guy, and then cuts his mintes severely when he returns.
corksens
Legend
JackBurton
Well-known member
In the end, if the Sens finish 9th, it won't mean anything. What will mean more is how two previous locks for playoff spots look like they could miss them next season (Boston/Pittsburgh).
MindzEye
Wayward Ditch Pig
I very clearly stated the terms of my argument from the onset. That you and your perpetual head injury tried to spin that out in a bunch of ways I had never intended it, clinging to small data points in a broader argument is none of my concern.
MindzEye
Wayward Ditch Pig
In the shortened season, we looked like this:
JVR (23) - Bozak (25) - Kessel (25)
Kulemin (26) - Kadri (22) - Lupul (29)
MacA (27) - Grabo (29) - Komarov (26)
Phaneuf (27) - Gunner (26)
Gardiner (22) - Franson (25)
Riemer (24)
As our top 9 & 4
Currently you look like this
MacA (29) - Turris (25) - Stone (22)
Hoffman (25) - ZBad (21) - Ryan (27)
Michalek (30) - Pageau (22) - Condra (28)
Karlsson (24) - Methot (29)
Phillips (old) - Ceci (21)
Anderson (33)
You have Stone breaking out as a 22 yr old, we had JVR breaking out as a 23 yr old. You have Karlsson as a 24 yr old star, carrying the load, we had a 25 yr old Kessel scoring at a 89 point pace. You had a young 1-2 centreman grouping with strong showings, we had Kadri putting up near PPG numbers and Bozak looking like a useful, young top 6 centre going forward. You have Ceci playing top 4 minutes, we had Gardiner doing the same, less than a year older than Ceci is now
The Leafs didn't have enough high end talent to break through and become a consistent threat (and we've had some nearly worst case scenarios occur with the development of Kadri, Gardiner, & Bozak since then) and you've admitted that the Sens have a similar problem, they lack a few key, high end players in core roles to push them forward to contender status.
Where you are now, and where the Leafs were a few seasons ago, are damn similar territory as an organization.