OT: The Official Toronto Raptors Thread

[MindzEye]

and even with that out of the way...no they probably wouldn't. If all other things were equal (contract length and cost being the most significant factor), Lee is significantly better than Bargnani is. Significantly. This is born out in the "normal" and advanced statistics.

 

[zeke]

No...EFF makes me believe that David Lee is a very efficient basketball player overall.With his lack of shot blocking, small size for the position suggesting that he's a below average defender for the position, just like Bargnani's respectable shot blocking totals and good size for the position suggests that he's an average or better than average defender at the position

EFF is a statistical measure of overall efficiency on the court, not an end all be all comparison tool. However, when a player has a significantly higher EFF than another player, absent some sort of extreme extenuating circumstance (playing time and shot opportunities being the 2 most obvious), it's pretty safe to assume that the player with the significantly higher EFF is the more valuable player

bolded part = exactly

The problem you seem to have here is that you don't credit post players as good offensive players, which shows me how little knowledge and appreciation you really have of the sport. A point is a point, whether it's a layup or a 20 foot turnaround jump shot. Ask any coach on the planet though and they'll tell you which points were a product of better play.

To equate it to hockey, it's like saying that a player like Holmstrom wasn't a good offensive player because he scores all his goals from the front of the net. But you would have argued until you were blue in the face that he was just as good offensively as any other 30/55 player in the league. You're confusing flash with effectiveness.

Not at all. It has nothing to do with flash vs. efffectiveness - it has everything to do with skill vs. no skill.

The problem with looking at field goal percentage is that it ends up ignoring the massive difference between players who can create offense, and those who can just pick up the trash.

There are many players who cannot create shots, and cannot even shoot the ball, and therefore do not shoot the ball....efficiency numbers literally end up claiming that unskilled offensive players who don't even try to shoot the ball are better offensively than skill players who do.

This is especially detrimental when evaluating a "centre" with incredible range and skill like Bargnani.

Well that's not true at all. Defensive rebounds, blocks, and steals are all measured within EFF.

It includes every regular defensive statistic measured by the NBA.

And, unfortunately, rebounds and blocks do not equal defense.

They, are in fact, entirely secondary to defense, although admittedly they are important in their own right.

 

[axlsalinger]

I'm not crazy about the arguments about other players reflecting on performances, but honestly. What would David Lee's numbers look like on the Raptors, if they didn't have Bosh, Bargnani, Calderon or Turkoglu. Cause that's the Knicks.

They'd probably be similar, because somebody has got to be the go-to guy on offence.

 

[axlsalinger]

The Knicks would trade David Lee for Andrea Bargnani, in a New York second.

 

[zeke]

One-on-One game, ME, who wins? Bargs or Lee?

and is it close?

 

[MindzEye]

bolded part = exactly




Not at all. It has nothing to do with flash vs. efffectiveness - it has everything to do with skill vs. no skill.

Which is entirely subjective...because at the end of the day the most points wins a game, not the most skill.

The problem with looking at field goal percentage is that it ends up ignoring the massive difference between players who can create offense, and those who can just pick up the trash.

2pts = 2pts

a pretty 2pts is worth the exact same amount as an ugly 2pts...and a player who picks up 20 ugly points a night is a better offensive contributor than a player who picks up 17 pretty points a night

There are many players who cannot create shots, and cannot even shoot the ball, and therefore do not shoot the ball....efficiency numbers literally end up claiming that unskilled offensive players who don't even try to shoot the ball are better offensively than skill players who do.

It's a basketball game, not a skills competition douche bag

Score more points than you let your opposition score. That's the entire point of the game. There are no style points awarded.

This is especially detrimental when evaluating a "centre" with incredible range and skill like Bargnani.

All it boils down to is how monstrously you overvalue this subjective measure of "skill", specifically at the centre position.

Rafer Alston in his youth was as skilled a point guard as their was in the world...period. He used to **** NBA point guards up at Ruckers every summer...good NBA point guards, and a lot of guys would skip Ruckers and just duck playing him to avoid getting hurt.

It took him years to get into the NBA though, despite having a higher "skill" level than almost every PG in the show.

Effectiveness is all that matters, not how pretty you look doing it.

And, unfortunately, rebounds and blocks do not equal defense.

They're large components of defence.

They, are in fact, entirely secondary to defense, although admittedly they are important in their own right.

Without strong defensive habits, you don't become a strong defensive rebounder or shot blocker. Defensive rebounding specifically is based on the principle of staying between your check and the rim at all times. It shows strong defensive positioning, which is a large component of team defence.

I think you're taking "man on man" defence to be the meaning of the word "defence" when there is much more to it than that.

 

[MindzEye]

One-on-One game, ME, who wins? Bargs or Lee?

and is it close?

Why does it matter?

in 1998, who wins 1 on 1. Rafer Alston, or Mark Jackson?


Which one do you want running your point in a playoff series in that same year though?

 

[MindzEye]

I'm not crazy about the arguments about other players reflecting on performances, but honestly. What would David Lee's numbers look like on the Raptors, if they didn't have Bosh, Bargnani, Calderon or Turkoglu. Cause that's the Knicks.

They'd probably be similar, because somebody has got to be the go-to guy on offence.

But yet he only takes 1 more shot per game than Bargnani, and according the USG%, has a similar amount of plays run for him.

 

[MindzEye]

The Knicks would trade David Lee for Andrea Bargnani, in a New York second.

and again...no they wouldn't. Not a chance.

Lee is a significantly better player than Bargnani, once again, as born out in both the orthodox, and advanced statistics.

 

[PlayerToBeNamedLater]

Lee is so great that the Knicks refused to make a long term commitment to him.

He's the classic stat padder on a bad team. He's a 6th man, backup PF on a quality, championship level team.

And the Knicks know it, as does the rest of the league who refused to give him big money.

 

[MindzEye]

bolded part = exactly

way to take my point out of context.

If a player has a 21 EFF, and another has a 20 EFF...it's not a slam dunk that the guy with the 21 is the superior player.

But when one guy has a 26.8, and the other has a 17.0....the guy with the 26.8 is the better player, end of story.

 

[axlsalinger]

Lee is so great that the Knicks refused to make a long term commitment to him.

He's the classic stat padder on a bad team. He's a 6th man, backup PF on a quality, championship level team.

And the Knicks know it, as does t he rest of the league who refused to give him big money.

Yup. I had strong interest in the Raps signing David Lee in the off-season ...

... for the bench.

 

[PlayerToBeNamedLater]

If Lee is one of your best players, making a top salary, you're doomed for being as good...as the Knicks.

 

[MindzEye]

Lee is so great that the Knicks refused to make a long term commitment to him. [/auote]

Because they're saving up for Lebron + another star. I debunked this garbage last night, and even a half assed attempt at learning about the situation will uncover dozens of articles saying just that.

He's the classic stat padder on a bad team. He's a 6th man, backup PF on a quality championship level team.

This just keeps getting more and more ridiculous as we go along

And the Knicks know it, as does t he rest of the league who refused to give him big money.

and we'll see what the league thinks of him this time around. Team's have been lining up for this 2010 free agent class for 2 years now.

 

[zeke]

Why does it matter?

in 1998, who wins 1 on 1. Rafer Alston, or Mark Jackson?

Which one do you want running your point in a playoff series in that same year though?

So you agree that Bargs would dominate Lee one on one. good. that's a start.

Now here's where you agree that Bargs is also a beter help defender than Lee.

and Jackson was a great PG, Alston is a waste of talent. Jackson likely wins one on one becase he could actually shoot the ball and at one point could actually defend. Alston could do neither.

In fact, Bargnani is the one who resembles Jackson in that comparison, and Lee the one who resembles Alston.

 

[MindzEye]

If Lee is one of your best players, making a top salary, you're doomed for being as good...as the Knicks.

Awesome reasoning...I love how the two biggest statophiles on the board are absolutely ignoring the statistical evidence. Two guys who absolutely cringe at the thought of subjective analysis being worth more than statistical analysis are both doing their absolute best to blatantly ignore the landslide advantage Lee has over Bargnani, and instead focus on every silly little trivial piece of information they can come up with.

 

[zeke]

David Lee reminds me of an old knick - Kurt Thomas.

Except that Thomas had to share the ball with Houston and Sprewell and others.

 

[PlayerToBeNamedLater]

Because they're saving up for Lebron + another star. I debunked this garbage last night, and even a half assed attempt at learning about the situation will uncover dozens of articles saying just that..

Yup. NY wants to sign REAL core players.

and we'll see what the league thinks of him this time around. Team's have been lining up for this 2010 free agent class for 2 years now.

We saw what the league thought last year when nobody was willing to put up big money to get him. Even as a RFA, if a team offered up a big salary, the Knicks wouldn't have matched given their plans in 2010.

 

[MindzEye]

So you agree that Bargs would dominate Lee one on one. good. that's a start.

Dominate is a strong word, but Barg's talents are definitely better suited for a 1 on 1 game than Lee's...though Lee's talents are far better suited for the NBA game

Now here's where you agree that Bargs is also a beter help defender than Lee.

Hard to say, Bargnani is the better helpside shotblocker obviously, but there's more to help defence than that.

and Jackson was a great PG, Alston is a waste of talent. Jackson likely wins one on one becase he could actually shoot the ball and at one point could actually defend. Alston could do neither.

Alston would have eaten him 1 on 1, badly. Alston was the most feared PG at the Rucker for years...and a lot of NBA players run at Rucker park in the summer. Some of Alston & Marbury's battles at the Rucker are legendary in NYC, and surely you're not going to suggest that Jackson could have hung with a young Marbury on the playground?

In fact, Bargnani is the one who resembles Jackson in that comparison, and Lee the one who resembles Alston.

What?

You're ****ing lost

 

[PlayerToBeNamedLater]

Awesome reasoning...I love how the two biggest statophiles on the board are absolutely ignoring the statistical evidence. Two guys who absolutely cringe at the thought of subjective analysis being worth more than statistical analysis are both doing their absolute best to blatantly ignore the landslide advantage Lee has over Bargnani, and instead focus on every silly little trivial piece of information they can come up with.

Stats have to be used in context.

When Mark Bell was the Blackhawks best player, that doesn't automatically make him a great core player.